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Because Raze was wondering~ and thought this was better for discussion than Tumblr question? Idk. :D

Anyway, we all know Mack's horses at The Outpost are in pretty bad condition, either run-down, on-their-last-legs horses or untamed, wild ones. One has little luck finding an actual good-quality horse there unless they devote the resources to breaking and training the wild ones. And so...

I wanted to know if it would be plausible for a character, or group of characters, to trade for some of Mack's horses (namely, Wayne will probably get all offended and trade to get the animals he can save) and, after spending (a realistic amount of) time rehabilitating them, trading them away themselves, if not for a huuuge profit, at least the satisfaction of making a horse happyyy. And in the process getting people to give the character (Wayne, other CdC people who wanna be involved) stuff in exchange for actual trained horses and stuff. :B

I'm not sure why this wouldn't work, but I don't think of everything! So I wanted any input I could get, as well as the viability of actually getting these animals from Mack (probably like one or two at a time, and more focus on wild ones rather than sad old nags, unless I wanna give Wayne dead horse angst).

Or... Idk, I'm rambling and am not sure if this is a good idea or not? I want to be able to have Wayne available to give out horses for those interested so there is a realistic source there. But I also don't want to like... have a horse monopoly. :|

I have a headache okay. ;;
The only thing I can foresee being an issue would be the amount of care that each horse would need. If they were underfed then a lot of grain and feed would be needed to get them back at a healthy weight, as well as a diet plan suited for the condition of each horse. Other things to consider would be hoof, coat and dental care and everything that would go into that. I think that this is a really good idea though! A lot of characters are using horses now and there is no steady place to get good horses in the area without going all the way down to Fairbanks. It would be nice to have some quality horses a little closer to home :)
Yeah, I've put thought into all the resources needed. Wayne is the stablemaster of CdC, after all. :)

There would probably only be one or two horses at a time -- because they would need the supplies to trade for them, and then fewer horses means better individual care, obviously -- and more focus on recuperating the wild ones, which would be fresh-caught and less underfed, rather than the sick and emaciated ones. Wayne would want to rescue the super thin ones/ones on the butcher's block, but with CdC's own horse herd a priority, it wouldn't be a viable option -- or really realistic for someone else to want to obtain the horse, unless they were a bleeding heart type also?

Still a thought. :> And I'm not sure if this would be good as a "steady" source of horses if only Wayne is undertaking the project, but we could see.
Aspen has been learning about horse care and she would totally want to be involved in this. Except she's up north. xD But if she had things to trade for a horse he started rehabilitating, she'd probably end up doing it. Even if it's just a one-off as far as him taking on a skinny horse (maybe then realizing just how much work it is? I dunno), I'd totally be down for something like that happening... somehow.
I REALLY like this idea, btw. I had Axelle do something like this for a sick, emaciated one she got from the Outpost for Anathema :D

If I had any characters that were horse people, I would contribute - but I do not.
Honrin would be all over this idea, as the gamekeeper of CdA it wouldbe a smart thing for him to get involved in, and CdA and CdC being allies it could be a you help me, i help you kinda situation ;3
Alder has a true hatred for Mack, and traded for a mare and a stallion already. After seeing Axelle's poor horses she got from him, he had to go and save who he could!

I have given them ailments that could be treated with herbs, TLC, and time. Parasites, dehydration, emaciated and such. Alder will eventually give the male to his little sister Andi ^^

Alder and Wayne could team up and save who they could. And if they cant be rehabilitated, at least give them a comfortable place to live till they passed.
First, let me clarify our reasoning for having Mack supply broken down horses! Not because anyone asks, but for clarity and transparency and yesss. It comes down to two things:
  • In the past, there was a... shall we say, overabundance of magically obtained perfectly-trained, super-healthy, exact breed, or ride-ready wild horses in the past. Essentially, unrealistic horses. We wanted to really reinforce that really great horses are difficult to come by, and exact breeds nigh impossible.
  • We don't want to police Mack's horse trading. It'd be a lot higher maintenance than Dalimil to do so, as Mack would have variable stock. We have a stock list of many, many mare
    "color + personality + training" combinations and a few customized stallions to post at random. Additionally, it would require constant trading -- whereas Dali is only every three months.

We hoped Dalimil the trader providing really high-quality horses would help players and packs get *really good* horses for trade, from a... "legitimate" and realistic source, essentially. These horses are often not all claimed when posted... and we're not noticing as many instances of "pristine horses" (point one), so good! Packs having large, consistent stocks of tradeable horses also helps a ton!
  • We don't want to create bNPCs for this purpose, primarily for the above two reasons.
  • At least some of the broken-down horses will not be able to be rehabilitated. They should have permanent injuries -- in some cases, lameness, etc. In these cases, it may be possible for the animals to be taken in by a kind-hearted Luperci, but it's a little stretchy to see any character devote quite so much time, energy, and resources to something that's not going to do much work -- Luperci are advanced enough to keep "pets," yes, and characters have had purely-decorative animals before... but the vast majority of animals are working type. That said, though, it's not in the realm of impossibility and does depend on individual character -- but yes, definitely something to keep in mind.
  • It would be important to keep in mind this would be providing a very viable/consistent income for Mack, who may increase his trade and carry *more* bad horses (pet shop type principle, you know?). Some character might eventually point that out, but it would be interesting to see the thing evolve to the point where they realize Mack is "filthy rich" (obligatory non-cash warning here) by Luperci standards. x3 He's pretty much the greedy sort, so instead of carrying better horses, he'd probably just widen his pool of shit ones...

All of that said, if there's an actual played character effort, this would be totally fine with us. It seems members from several packs are interested, so perhaps the best solution would be to have an inter-pack effort? This would make it easier to obtain horses from Mack, IC cost-wise, and even easier to maintain the horses. If you guys have open cNPC slots for any participating characters, your cNPCs can be made to help tend to the horses, even as permanent guards of the facility. You could give permission for any participating characters to interact with these NPCs.
  • It would be important to keep in mind, if a group-effort horse "rehab" is not located on any *pack* territory (i.e., somewhere in the neutral lands) it isn't a "protected" area. It doesn't get the same benefits of packs -- so non-participating characters might visit the area, try to harm the horses, or even set the thing on fire. This is similar to Loner groups.
  • If it's in the neutral territories, you'd also need to create a public Wiki resource page, much like the Drifter Bay Horse Herd. I actually suggest you do this anyway even if it's in a pack place, Wiki = great planning resource if well-used (PSST -- you can get RSS feeds of individual pages).
  • If it's in a pack territory, board-wide trespassing rules would need to be kept in mind, or the leader could make rules superseding the board-wide rules, or an exception just for the participants of the horse plot.

One of the 'SA members in the discussion we had suggested that a herd, such as the Drifter Bay herds, could be formed of some horses. This is an intense effort, but possible with some of the best stock from Mack's herds? Trade opportunities with the keepers of the other herd, too. ;) I personally think a neutral territory horse hub other than IF/SL herd would be awesome!
Hoo boy. I'd originally thought of this as "Wayne takes two horses tops to rehabilitate and trade out" but if more people from various packs are interested, that would be pretty awesome! :O Especially if we have a CdC/CdA/CdM (the Cds!) "alliance" of horsie people to do this. :>

Anyway, ogling longpost by Sie. 8D I love reading these.

Yeah, I was annoyed at a lot of the realism issues with perfectly tame, combat-ready, purebred Friesian stallion caught from the wild -- but still, I thought this would be good to have a "source" of horses for the south that are of DECENT (not Svantevit-great, obvs) quality. Mack's information (or the Outpost info) stated that he had wild-caught horses too, and that it would be more feasible to train one of them than expect one of the downtrodden horses to magically be better, and so I thought these horsefolk would focus more on the ones that aren't just going to keel over, since resources would be strained with pack horses a priority. Having someone try to care for a sick horse and having it die on them would be a fun plot point, though.

Quote:It would be important to keep in mind this would be providing a very viable/consistent income for Mack, who may increase his trade and carry *more* bad horses (pet shop type principle, you know?). Some character might eventually point that out, but it would be interesting to see the thing evolve to the point where they realize Mack is "filthy rich" (obligatory non-cash warning here) by Luperci standards. x3 He's pretty much the greedy sort, so instead of carrying better horses, he'd probably just widen his pool of shit ones...

And thank you for this. :O This is honestly something that I had not considered fully and I'm really glad you pointed it out. xD; But it might be interesting to see how that develops and what is done about it -- perhaps characters who realize what is going on could get mad at the "rehabilitators" for this if they make the pet-shop connection? It might lead to some conflict or something. :> Like... dummy, you are not helping the horses, you're only encouraging him!

Anyway, I wanted to extend the offer to anyone who expressed interest in doing this (like Honrin, Alder) to actually make this "horse rehab" type of thing in the south? :O It would probably be small, only one or two of Mack's hardier, better-suited-to-survive horses at first, but who knows if they might end up like the Drifter Bay horses. I am crazy about the wiki so I would be really happy to take control of that resource page.

And there could also be fun plots since it might be in neutral territory. x3 Wayne has a cNPC who has experience with stealing/breaking/training horses so she could be a guard-type in that instance. So...

I guess I'll open myself up to any contact for starting this, if anyone is serious about doing this. :D
If all goes well, i'll be bringing in Leonardo who is my animal husbandry dude (figured i might as well put my bachelors degree to use), who will be joining CdC and i am more than willing to help out on wiki stuff ^^

I'll poke you on aim in a bit Raze :)
As serious as it comes ;D, Honrin very occasionally catches wild horses for breaking in and trading, usually only one horse at a time for a few weeks/months depending on how long it takes. But he also intensely dislikes Mack and on the subject of Mack becoming rich, he'd be willing to go undercover and steal some of the horses so that Mack doesn't make a profit. He adores horses and despises to see them in misery of any sort so he'd be the one to take in all the old nags and give them comfort until they died x3 cause he's a softie like that.

Hopefully with the passing of the next month Honrin will be promoted to the top gamekeeper of CdA, so he'd presumably be the one in charge of the CdA herd and new additions and what's done with them and so on. All in all I can see this being a very fun plot. :D

An idea to start the idea off, Honrin is returning to the Outpost at the end of next week, he could meet up with Wayne/Alder?/whoever else there and they could 'discuss' the dreadful state of the horses there and thus the plot beginnings are born?
I am going to create a Google Drive document to sort out some of this stuff; if you want the link to it, PM me!

Having Honrin steal from Mack might make for an interesting plot later on -- maybe with retribution on the part of Mack and some of the Outpost people who might not be pleased with anyone's goods getting stolen? After all, if someone could steal from Mack, they could steal from anyone else and on principl e that is bad -- but we could figure this out later. :> I don't want to obviously destroy part of the Outpost with a plot between members, but if the 'SA and others are interested, we could do a small thing with this that might even put an end to the rehab group nabbing Mack's horses at all. :o Who knows! It won't be for a while that Mack will be super "rich" though, I'm guessing.

But yeah, having those three meet up and talk the Outpost would be really good. :O We might even be able to get someone from AW on this (Saqui?) and it could be a fun southern thang. 8D
*cough* remember that southern peace treaty that was discussed IC but not really discussed OOC past leaders? We could extend it to include the southern packs all working together and providing resources for this idea in order to make a more controlled IC source of horses for us. Just my two cents worth :3
Why have I not seen this topic before!? O_o

Kenna would totally be in on this! She and Honrin work very closely with each other and CdA's horses, I don't see why the two of them wouldn't tag team on this. Kenna once got and rehabilitated a horse from Mack herself (Autumn, who is now Adrian Kido's horse) and she absolutely hates the whole thing regarding Mack. When she had visited the Outpost with Skye, she wanted to buy every single one, no matter how poor their condition just to give them a better end to their lives than how they would go in Mack's "care".

The only issue I'm seeing atm on a personal level is, Kenna's pregnant now. x__x ...Despite that would there be any place for her in this plot?
Kenna Foxleigh Wrote:The only issue I'm seeing atm on a personal level is, Kenna's pregnant now. x__x ...Despite that would there be any place for her in this plot?
Well, this will be a long-term plot. :) Even if she cannot work personally with the horses right now, there's always space for her in the future!

Everyone interested, again -- please send me a PM and I'll give you the link to the Google Doc to plan this stuff! :O
Is this southern packs only now, then?

Also--an issue I thought of: if these horses are severely malnourished, I don't know if they could make the trip from Mack to any of the southern packs by walking. Possibly by use of the CdA ship, though.
Yeah, I think it would mostly be southern packs as the "rehabilitation center" would be there in the south -- but northern packs are welcome to chip in! I want to let this be open to anyone, but they'd be more... occasional helpers, I think, since they'd have to travel so far to do anything. I know there is at least one northern pack member interested in chipping in a little -- not major involvement, but something!

And that is a good point! This is why I like having people to bounce ideas off of. xD One small idea would be for interested parties in the northern packs to kind of house the horses long enough to get them strong enough for the journey! :o I dunno!
I was interested earlier in this thread! x3 Aspen could house a horse or two then. VN is right there, after all!
Sequoia would be interested in helping, too! Sangi'lak has a pretty small herd and would be capable of housing a few horses as well if it was needed :)
Meep! One quick note re: horses staying with northerners...

I'm still not an expert; I don't know how healthy a horse needs to be to travel. However, those that are far too weak to go to the rehab center are probably lost causes anyway. I've noted in a few places that more focus would be put on the wild-caught horses or those who aren't extremely ill, as it would be a waste of resources to try to nurse a horse back to health that will end up dying anyway. Again, though, this is a workable idea.

Everyone who is very seriously interested, PM me if you want the link to the Google Doc.
I've added a few things to the doc in the discussions area. So far everything looks good to me. Who would be starting this effort though? Like who'd be the first person to buy from Mack?
I am interested in Cal being involved in this somehow.
Westy -- I know some individuals have already bought from Mack or at least seen the horses in his care, so I guess it's just a matter of getting Kenna/Honrin/whoever in a thread to discuss the effort. Wayne got a horse from Mack that he's working on rehabilitating already, as well as another foal from someone else. So... I guess they'd work on setting up a rehabilitation area/discussing it first, then whoever wants to can buy from Mack as the "first" horse they're gonna work on.

Again, everyone interested, you must PM me to get the Google Doc link. I won't be giving it away unless I have confirmation that someone is interested via a PM asking for the link.
Alright. Sounds good. I'm thinking since Kenna's preggo right now, the meeting can be between Honrin and Wayne and Honrin will just relay the info to her. Kenna too previously bought and rehabilitated a mare from Mack, so she knows what the situation's like over there and will definitely jump on board once filled in. *Nods.*
I'm pretty new here, but my character will be joining VN, and she has experience as a farrier, so maybe she could come down every once in a while to shoe them and take care of their feet? Also, wild horses wouldn't need as much hoof care, as they naturally wear theirs down over time.
Is this still going on? I believe I expressed Dodge's willingness to Raze once, (but half my messages are eaten by my laptop and never send :P), but I'd like to ask for an official joining, (that is if things are still going on)

If you need a strong member, I doubt Dodge would refuse to help these poor horses.