Luperci & Abs
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#1
So, I keep seeing male luperci presented as having these "Adonis"-like bodies with massive muscles and defined abs in drawings, and it got me thinking: "Why would luperci even have them?"

Abs are generally for aesthetic purposes and Luperci are supposed to do most things in order to survive, so wouldn't gaining ultra-toned muscles through specific exercize be a mute point?

Additionally, body-builders are generally weaker in those forms. However, strong men are much much stronger than body-builders and they are just hulking masses of muscles. Wouldn't luperci strive for that form instead?

Just a thought! I thought it might make a good discussion topic. From what I have read and heard about muscle tone, abs come from very specific dieting and muscle work-outs so I doubt that they would come from the work that luperci do on average.

Anybody else have any thoughts about this?
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#2
For the most part, I think abs are more artistic preference and less an accurate representation of how the characters "actually" are. While I personally draw fairly feral-looking Optime forms (tendency to hunch somewhat, lots of neck and chest fluff/mane, shaggier overall appearance), some artists take a more "humanized" approach to rendering their Luperci (stand straighter, more human-looking leg structure, less neck/chest fluff, etc), which results in more prominent abdominal muscles. Two artists might render the same character very differently, but the player might still consider both to be accurate.

I do think extremely sculpted muscle rendering stems from a lack of general understanding about health, fitness, and muscles though, so that can certainly be improved on with discussion and education, but it's also true that light definition of abs aren't necessarily uncommon in healthy adults.
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#3
I've always thought, living like they do, that many Luperci were relatively toned and muscled anyway. Not quite body builder buff but still in shape. They don't have TVs, computers, etc. to sit in front of all day, and they have to hunt for their meals, rather than just drop by the grocery store to pick up goodies. Without modern day short cuts, their general life style is much more labor intensive. I think it would more rare for maybe a female character to have abs but males really don't have to work too hard at all to have a six pack. Just being healthy and moderately fit, and not over weight, and abs on a male body seem to stand out with little effort. Or that's my impression anyway....
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#4
Just my two cents, since i'm probably one of the worst artists for doing this: my anatomy is completely human based (ewww, i know) and i draw muscle definition for simple aesthetic fun -- it is in no way intended as an actual representation of strength or to serve some deeper IC purpose; it is purely visual fun ^^; Often characters (my own and those i draw) would have a more exact explanation for muscles in their written descriptions.

Sooo for me, it's my personal art preference *shrugs*. Often i do try to show various body types to represent muscle usage, as well as species, but such things aren't necessarily easy and artist levels, comfort zone and preference probably determine, as kiri said, how people draw them (feral vs humanised).

I feel it should be okay for artists to be able to use their own discretion/artistic license as to how they perceive something to be? Art is very much individual perception of something and i don't see the harm in it, so long as written content is corresponding to game realism: with writing (the aim of the game) and art (a more external factor) not being the same thing?
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#5
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#6
The "sculpted" six-pack look is fairly unnatural though, and I think that's Kite's point here. Healthy, active, labourers in human history were certainly strong/fit/etc, but pretty much no one had prominent, showy abdominals. Those muscles aren't used much in day-to-day labour, which is why very specific exercises exist for humans today wanting to have prominent abs/six-packs. Running, hunting, riding horses, digging, etc, none of the things Luperci are prone to do will push those ab muscles. :>

Healthy and fit =/= having a well-defined six-pack.

As I said, I agree that soft definition of abs are probably natural enough, but fur would cover a lot of that, too, so unless an individual is especially sculpted, they probably wouldn't show up much "in reality." But I think it's probably a slippery slope trying to dictate how artists want to draw characters though. Musculature is very much a stylistic thing for many, even if it may not be 100% accurate to how characters "should" look. (I mean, after all, Luperci boobs don't make a lot of sense either (both the fact that Optimes only seem to have two breasts and the fact that some Luperci are extremely well-endowed) but we allow them.)

ETA: shadowposted by Kitty and Sunny, but yeah. XD
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#7
lol Sunny. And I was gonna post but Kiri said literally everything I was gonna say (including boobs) so idk why I am replying. :|

ETA: I was gonna mention that musculature could def vary between Luperci depending on their lifestyles -- for instance, a Luperci who spends most of their time in Lupus form would have built up different muscles than the Luperci who helps build things and lifts heavy logs, etc. But otherwise, I don't think it'd be a very large difference.
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#8
I mostly got the idea for posting this when I was watching Dual Survival, because I was like, "Oh, hey, these people do a lot of survival and they don't have anything close to abs!"

It is super cool to see people talking about it though maybe I actually had an interesting thought for once.

And I also l know that it generally is artistic preference but I also thought that it was likely that there probably were some characters that displayed a more sculpted build, etc. etc.

I like reading everyone's opinions and everything 8D
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#9
Well yeah the dude Sunny shared, certainly is really buff. I don't mean sculpt like that guy, but like you said Kiri, some sort of definition would seem common. ^__^

And I had always wondered about luperci and breast given that dogs have more than two but never realized that in optime they were not supposed to have them at all....Time to fix some personal art :o

As for Dual Survival, those people, as far I know, live on and off in "survival mode" and "the real world". Not sure that they would be a reliable source to compare to but good observation nonetheless.
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#10
Quote:And I had always wondered about luperci and breast given that dogs have more than two but never realized that in optime they were not supposed to have them at all....Time to fix some personal art :o

There is actually no official canon for how many breasts Luperci have in Optime form, so if you've drawn Optimes with a full set of eight teats that most canines have, that's totally fine? This is one of those areas that we've always left 100% up to artistic preference, so eight breasts, two breasts, and however many in between are all acceptable. Most, of course, opt for two in Optime for as it's the aesthetic we're most used to, but heeey whatever works. :>

On a similar note, it's also up to artists/personal pref as to whether well-endowed Luperci in Optime form also have hella prominent teats in Lupus form, hahaha. But most super voluptuous Optimes don't spend a lot of time in Lupus anyway.
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#11
8,) *definitely guilty of the ab thing*

I didn't know what the aesthetic canon was with Luperci when I first started drawing them. I figured that since their two-legged form takes a humanoid shape, it stands to reason that they would have a humanoid muscular and skeletal construction. With the exception of the legs, but even then, in my own drawings I tend to emphasize the calf muscle more than in a dog's leg and give them human thighs. I personally think Alaine does a better job than me at emphasizing the dog-leg structure in her drawings, with condensed calves and thicker/different thighs and larger paws.

As for abdominals, I'm not sure what a human body would look like in a state of nature. While I realize that a healthy human figure can certainly hold a lot of fat or come in different shapes, one perspective to consider is that in a state of nature, not many are healthy, and many are emaciated or bloated or are extremely lean. In a domesticated society, physical laborers in history have come with a variety of shapes.

I think in situations where a variety of nutrition is available, genetics begin to play a bigger role - some people are predisposed to form prominent abdominals, others may have bigger biceps or triceps and etc. I also think that muscle formation depends on the activity they frequently do. For instance, I imagine that a sailor, given the amount of tugging, pulling, lifting, hauling, etc, would have very strong upper body strength. Physically, I imagine these activities would target the core, the back, the arms, and if the sailor in question was genetically predisposed to developing these muscles over others, then it could be reasonable if such muscles were defined.

But yes, muscle definition ≠ strength. Body-builders, for instance, may not be as strong as the Olympic power-squatter. One is aesthetic, the other is physical.

IDK, I guess my thought is that yes, not everyone would be super cut, and there are probably a wide variety of fat+muscle shapes out there, but I also don't think that it's unreasonable to show abs, even through fur (on a long haired dog that might be a little trickier, but with short hair...pibbles are like the michelangelos of dogs).

Artistically, I prefer to go with idealizations. Since it's mostly for fun, I'm not very interested in accurate representations. Sometimes you just wanna

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#12
Heeey, I'm gonna give my opinion on the matter cus I feel strongly about anatomy in general :v

I agree that Luperci would not develop defined abs. Actually, only the few of them of a more slim built would have any defined muscles at all!
If by "defined' we mean a high muscular, low fat mass, then that would be kind of hard to achieve. If in Optime form we take they store fat similarly to humans, then the males would store it primarily around their waists and bellies. Even if they aren't obese, you'd still get a healthy layer of fat around there. At best, you'd get to see the toned lines there, and only if they DID make specific exercises, but hardly would you see a defined 6-pack there :p
If you have a Luperci with a higher metabolism, that doesn't store fat as easily as others, then the muscles would be easier to see, since they won't be hidden by those layers of chub. Again, they are more likely to be toned rather than defined. Think the three body types. Not everyone is a mesomorph and gains muscle easily.
Also, if you look at modern humans who still live a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, like the aboriginal australians, african tribes and others, you see they have quite toned muscles, especially on the arms and back, but mostly legs. These people do a LOT of walking, and so do Luperci. And since fat doesn't store that as easily as in the midsection, then yes we'll have some nicely defined legs and butts there :p But the fur might hide those away a bit so meh.

ALL THAT SAID, we all still hold artistic licence to interpret our Optime characters the way we see fit, and if you wanna draw all the muscles, go ahead! <3
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#13
I'm just gonna drop in my two cents here. I think it is possible for some luperci to have abs, maybe not super defined six packs, but my brother, cousin, and two friend I have are all very thin, they have really fast metabolisms and don't put on fat easily, so they all have a degree of abdominal definition, as the muscles are covered only by skin, with not much fat at all. They are all also not nearly as active as the average luperci, so I think it stands to reason that in a thin luperci, male or female, you could see some definition in the abdominal region, given that it wasn't covered by long fur.

However, that multi boob thing might prevent a female from ever having abs, lol :P

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#14
8,D I agree with Corie!

I thought about this a lot more, and I definitely think it's in the realm of possibility for Luperci to have abs.

Muscle definition, fat storage, metabolism, all of those bodily things vary from one person to another. One rule won't fit every body type.

Abdominal muscles serve a major role in many physical activities. They are a function in things like jumping, climbing, pulling, running, etc, and pretty much most activities you'd imagine would happen in Souls and elsewhere. I think it may be fallacious to presume that modern exercise and "targeting muscle groups" the way body builders do is the only thing that causes prominent abdominal muscles.

Additionally, in ancient human history, which I think is reasonably comparable to Souls give or take a few elements, exercise and calisthenics were incorporated and developed to give athletes and warriors a more functional, stronger edge. I think it stands to reason that a warrior from say, Scintilla, would have learned to do pushups. Or an archer, having to wield a hefty bow, would develop really strong arm muscles and may do exercises to continue strengthening them.

I think that given the variety of lifestyles and genetics and factors, it is within the realm of plausibility that some Luperci might have more definition in specific muscle groups, like abdominal muscles.

It likely won't be like this, because that's not even a natural state for a body-builder. Body-builders do very specific things to achieve that look.

I think it's helpful to look at google searches of athlete body diversity such as this, where you can get a sense of how people's body types change the places where they store fat and muscle.
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#15
This was an extremely interesting thread to read! A lot of people know a whole lot about muscles, and I now feel very informed @.@

However, I would like to reiterate that we are talking about muscular structure of an entirely fictional specie, that while it is not human certainly is human-ish - I don't feel that this issue can be looked at in the same terms of realism as a lot of other 'Souls queries can, and should really boil down to preference? I myself like to roleplay a very humanoid Luperci, who does very humanoid things in a very humanoid form. Because of this, I tend to draw him in a manner that more reflects my preference for writing him, and this extends to my artistic style in general, because associating him in this way with a more humanistic style of 'attractiveness' makes him more enjoyable to draw for me! If somebody else were to play their Luperci in a very feral way, with very feral activities and a very feral manner - think ND, non-humanization - then they should also see fit to interpret their character's muscle-mass in whatever way suits, within the general confines that the game provides!

Please note that this is not an argument for body-builder Luperci, or like woah calm down. More my opinion that these kind of things shouldn't necessarily be restricted too heavily, and that people should be generally tolerant of how their neighbor decides to visualize Luperci because we're all here to have fun :>
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#16
[Image: tumblr_m1gnv5uCqk1qgr3odo1_400.gif]

Sorry if I was being too much/disrespectful!!! guhhh *flails with beautiful sculpted figure a la handsome squidward*

I definitely agree! Open to interpretation and preference is good 8,)

I mostly just disagreed with Kite's initial point which was that prominent abdominal muscles were purely aesthetic and unnatural bluuhhh
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#17
In my opinion, without any research done, I always thought it semi-realistic that most Luperci would have defined muscles because they are out doing survival things and not usually laying around. Any dog that I have ever seen, with the exception of the overweight ones that were fed human food/unexercised and the fluffy ones, had some form of a toned body. Obviously, in their feral form, muscle definition wouldn't be all that noticeable because 1. fluff and 2. form. You'd probably see most of the muscle in their shoulders/necks/legs, and you wouldn't be able to tell where else there's muscle.

However, I think existing muscle mass would realistically transfer over when they shift to Luperci form, and probably take on a different form, some of which collecting in the abdominal area because of how their body was beforehand (lean, thin, heavier set, etc.). I definitely agree with San (I think?), who said that its more realistic for body types to differ (that's why I have Axelle, and then I have Belial xD) because that's true for most humans, and probably canines as well (not educated in this field). However, I have never seen an obese dog that was just obese because that was his genes... like usually dogs are overweight because of other reasons that are out of their control ~ like mentioned above, lack of exercise and eating out of their food zone. So, all in all, I think it's realistic to assume because nature, Luperci's are prone to be more lean than not, but can of course, differ because this is a game.

Like Alaine said, this is a game and is up to our imaginations - but I tend to aim for the more 'realistic' side of things because I feel like I don't fully understand something if its left up to my imagination >.>

But! That's just my two cents :)
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#18
DEM ABS
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