Realism Questions: Obtaining Fox cNPCs
#1
Since I figured out that Avinalora could have foxes now, I decided to come up with a read-only thread where Avinalora adopts fox kit(s).

The basic idea is that Avinalora takes a ferry to the mainland and goes to a trading caravan with Jarix. While browsing, Avinalora hears the kit's cries and finds a (or some) emaciated, one month old kit(s). Being the chaotic good that she is, she trades some items for the kits and then takes them.

I have some ideas about the kit's (or kits') species. I have it narrowed down to an Arctic Fox, Grey Fox, Cape Fox, Sechuran Fox, Fennec Fox, or Silver fox. I would think that the kits are there because the trader was an exotic pets trader or something along those lines. I don't know if there would be one of the species in the cage such as a Fennec and a Cape.

I am unsure of the realism of this thread and I have a few questions.

Would Avinalora need to use puppy points because she's adopting them?
Which fox species do you think would be good for this thread?
If I don have more than one fox kit, would it be okay if they were different species?
If I do use puppy points, would they be yNPCs and I would have to find players for them? Or would they be NPCs?
Would it be realistic for her to find these in a trading caravan, and am I allowed to use a trading caravan as the way she go them?

Any thoughts?
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#2
Avinalora Wrote:Would Avinalora need to use puppy points because she's adopting them?
Which fox species do you think would be good for this thread?
If I don have more than one fox kit, would it be okay if they were different species?
If I do use puppy points, would they be yNPCs and I would have to find players for them? Or would they be NPCs?
Would it be realistic for her to find these in a trading caravan, and am I allowed to use a trading caravan as the way she go them?

Any thoughts?

I'm not really the best when it comes to answering the first part, but I can help you out a bit here. For animal NPCs, you don't need to use pup points to obtain them. Pup points are only for on board pups between characters or luperci/non-luperci NPCs.

Bare in mind on the region your trader is from. Some breeds are easier to access than others. Also, I am not sure on the likelyhood of a trader starving kits if he/she is the one keeping them. If they intend to trade them away, I would think they would want to be a sort of good condition.

Different species should be ok. (Others feel free to correct me on this)

Note above for pup points.

A trading caravan should be alright, though seems more likely for her to find one of those outside the Nova Scotia area or in Portland where there is a lot of promise for trade. You should be able to take advantage of the LASKY for that.
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#3
Hi Silverfrost!

Would Avinalora need to use puppy points because she's adopting them? No. Puppy points are only used when your canine character decides to have a litter. Because foxes aren't among the Canis genus and don't possess the ability to shift, they count as creature companions, for which you have unlimited spaces (within reason). More information about puppies can be found here. More information about luperci can be found in the guidebook here.

Which fox species do you think would be good for this thread? I think this is really up to you, but just be sure that the foxes you choose can a. reasonably survive in the Nova Scotian climate or b. your character has reasonable access to resources to help a non-native species survive outside of its usual habitat. Something like the fennec fox would need a lot more consideration because it is native to Saharan Africa and would be accustomed to that type of climate.

If I don have more than one fox kit, would it be okay if they were different species? I'm not sure I entirely understand this question but if you had multiple fox kits of varying species that would be unusual but acceptable.

If I do use puppy points, would they be yNPCs and I would have to find players for them? Or would they be NPCs? They would not be yNPCs as that designation is reserved only for Luperci offspring. You could adopt the fox kits out to players because playing creatures that aren't Luperci is acceptable on 'Souls, they just cannot shift as Luperci can. No puppy points are involved in this process.

Would it be realistic for her to find these in a trading caravan, and am I allowed to use a trading caravan as the way she go them? The answer to this question depends entirely on how you go about it, but generally yes, it would be realistic. If Avinalora were to make the long journey to Portland she would have a better chance of running into said trading caravan, and that would require realistic travel times and a thread in Canon Lasky. Some of those fox species can be found in northern america, and you might consider posting a thread request looking for someone who could catch some foxes and trade with your character. You might also consider having Avinalora find them in the wild. There's a lot of options for you!
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#4
In addition to the great info mentioned by the others, fox kits (specifically red foxes, not sure about others) are weaned at 8-10 weeks, so a 4 week old fox kit would need to be nursed for a while. It would be difficult to provide the proper nutrition for a fox kit, so I would suggest doing some research on how she could do this, and keep in mind whether or not she would know how to do this. :)
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#5
San is spot on with puppy points and NPC designations, and the others have provided useful information, but I wanted to add some forewarning on realism as far as species, obtainment, etc.

This guide on non-canine companions is very helpful for questions like these! I’ll be referencing it somewhat in my answers, but do give it a read-over, as it helps with reasoning that I’ll only briefly touch on. This is my opinion. :)

If you take a look at the fox species, you’ll find that several of these species are native to desert areas very far from the Canadian setting. Their survival would be very unlikely in ‘Souls, especially with considerations toward temperature, and most of these species are, again, extremely exotic in terms of place of origin. The grey and red (as the “silver fox” is a color phase of the red) foxes are native to ‘Souls, so I’d recommend one of those as a fox companion.

It is unlikely that an individual would trade in “exotic pets.” It’s dangerous to cross the ocean for the sake of selling exotic desert fox puppies, most of which wouldn’t have a likely chance of survival and aren’t very “profitable” animals. Animal traders realistic in ‘Souls will trade useful animals: horses, livestock, messenger and hunting birds, etc. It might be more likely that an orphaned fox was found in other circumstances -- such as being found in the wild, as San mentioned. :)

Lastly… Avinalora already has several animal NPCs, so do ask yourself whether she would be able to take care of fox kits on top of her other companions, especially if they are young as Myst mentioned. She already has two birds, a cat, and a horse -- so it might not be realistic for her to take care of a fox, too. :( Since she cannot hunt for herself, her resources would already be pretty strained unless she had help from another packmate.
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#6
Quote:I'm not really the best when it comes to answering the first part, but I can help you out a bit here. For animal NPCs, you don't need to use pup points to obtain them. Pup points are only for on board pups between characters or luperci/non-luperci NPCs.
Oh...So Avinalora will probably never use her puppy points because she is infertile.

Quote:If you take a look at the fox species, you’ll find that several of these species are native to desert areas very far from the Canadian setting. Their survival would be very unlikely in ‘Souls, especially with considerations toward temperature, and most of these species are, again, extremely exotic in terms of place of origin.
I think the way I rationilized the desert fox kits were that deserts get really cold at night and well, yeah. But I guess Nova Scotia is colder than a desert at night. *Gently places desert fox kits in a trash can* So my options are now a Silver Fox, Arctic Fox, and Grey Fox?

Quote:It is unlikely that an individual would trade in “exotic pets.” It’s dangerous to cross the ocean for the sake of selling exotic desert fox puppies, most of which wouldn’t have a likely chance of survival and aren’t very “profitable” animals.
And I also should have thought about that.

Quote: fox kits (specifically red foxes, not sure about others) are weaned at 8-10 weeks, so a 4 week old fox kit would need to be nursed for a while. It would be difficult to provide the proper nutrition for a fox kit, so I would suggest doing some research on how she could do this, and keep in mind whether or not she would know how to do this. :)
I think I read the wrong guide. I was probably thinking about either kittens or wolf pups. So the fox kits will probably be two months old? If I did this, could I refer to the Puppies page on the RP guide?

Quote:Lastly… Avinalora already has several animal NPCs, so do ask yourself whether she would be able to take care of fox kits on top of her other companions, especially if they are young as Myst mentioned. She already has two birds, a cat, and a horse -- so it might not be realistic for her to take care of a fox, too. :( Since she cannot hunt for herself, her resources would already be pretty strained unless she had help from another packmate.
Well, the reason I was looking into new NPCs was that I think I'm dropping Jasper (the horse/pony) because he'll be living in the stables and will probably not be used again other than in history threads. I also never saw it as Avinalora taking care of her companions, really since I feel like they kind of take care of her. Jarix traps, Tyler (barn owl) hunts, and Eclipse is a mouser and I'd see Avinalora feeding the fox kits mice morsels. So maybe? *is now very confused and unsure*

Edit!
Quote:Would it be realistic for her to find these in a trading caravan, and am I allowed to use a trading caravan as the way she go them? The answer to this question depends entirely on how you go about it, but generally yes, it would be realistic. If Avinalora were to make the long journey to Portland she would have a better chance of running into said trading caravan, and that would require realistic travel times and a thread in Canon Lasky. Some of those fox species can be found in northern america, and you might consider posting a thread request looking for someone who could catch some foxes and trade with your character. You might also consider having Avinalora find them in the wild. There's a lot of options for you!
I had an additional idea of her crossing paths with a trader who had the fox pups. I'd think that he had killed the mothers for their pelts and is now waiting for the babies to grow big enough so that he can use their pelts. They probably won't be emaciated but in a cage (wooden cage), and Avinalora hates seeing animals in cages so I think she would trade for them because she wants them to be free.
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#7
Quote:Oh...So Avinalora will probably never use her puppy points because she is infertile.
Technically, you could give Avinalora a child if she arranged for a surrogate parent to give birth to them, I believe, since we make similar policies for same-sex couples. Do give the puppy procedures a quick read though! It has all the information about those policies, and I don't want to complicate this NPC question thread with a lot of additional what-ifs.

Quote:So my options are now a Silver Fox, Arctic Fox, and Grey Fox?
The arctic fox might face the opposite problem as the desert foxes; Nova Scotia might be too hot. However, if I were you, I’d do a little research on that -- check the arctic fox’s range and see what temperatures their natural habitat go through. It could be possible! I'd just take it into consideration if that's what you want, trying to help the fox keep cool, etc. :)

Quote:So the fox kits will probably be two months old? If I did this, could I refer to the Puppies page on the RP guide?
A two month old fox kit would be weaned, but no -- you couldn’t refer to the puppy page, as it only covers Luperci-capable species. A fox ages differently (and more quickly) than a wolf. This website might help you, but again, do additional research if you aren’t sure.

And you are right about the NPCs -- I forgot that most of them were predatory/self-sustaining. :) It should be fine if she focuses on the fox kit and the others are able to hunt for themselves. Jarix or Eclipse could probably teach the fox to hunt when it’s old enough, too, which would lessen the strain.

I think the idea of the fur trader raising the pups for their pelt could be okay.
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#8
Yay! Avinalora is going to have kids! (I guess)

I've decided on the genders of the foxes already. The Arctic Fox will be a female and the Silver and Grey foxes will be males. Now for the hard part...figuring out names.

The plot probably won't be posted until I finish up my two Midnight Shores threads, but I do need time to figure out the characters and do some research.

Thanks for all of your help!
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#9
Hey, Silverfrost!

It's true that exotic species such as Fennec Foxes, or out-of-range species such as Arctic Foxes, are not native to Nova Scotia and would not do well in its environment on their own. However, we have had exotic animals as "pets" and "companions" in the past as long as their numbers aren't too great, and as long as there is a feasible reason for them being in 'Souls in the first place. Exotic animal traders and fur traders are a good way to explain this.

Nevertheless, such animals would need special care to survive - for example, thin-furred animals such as the Fennec Fox would need to be provided extra warmth, and its dietary and environmental needs would need to be met. This is the primary stipulation we have regarding non-native species: they must realistically be able to survive, whether through the natural hardiness of their species or through adaptations and accommodations made.

Avinalora is free to enlist help from her cNPC, Jarix, as well as the pNPCs and other characters of her pack to help care for her animals if need be. You may find, however, that it might be easier for Avinalora to care for a fox that is native to 'Souls. It would be easier for her to find (and perhaps it could even be a plot point!) and easier for her to take care of, ultimately.

Additionally, it's unlikely that fox kits of three different species would be obtained at the same time though, regardless of how they're obtained. Traders would have a difficult enough time keeping up with the needs of a single exotic breed -- especially while young, much less the needs of three, young, different species. How would a trader come to obtain these different kits? While Avinalora may have the aide of an NPC and her pack to help care fox kits, traders and travelers are much less likely to have those resources, so it's important to keep in mind how these fox kits would realistically come into her possession.
  Reply
#10
By the way, my character Nyx adopted a red fox kit a while back so I did some research ^^ Fox kits can be fed goat milk as an adequate substitute if the mother is not available to nurse them, just thought I'd toss this bit of info in here, and also I dont think having a desert fox would be unreasonable considering she could put clothes on it XD That would be cute lol

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  Reply
#11
Nyx Wrote:By the way, my character Nyx adopted a red fox kit a while back so I did some research ^^ Fox kits can be fed goat milk as an adequate substitute if the mother is not available to nurse them, just thought I'd toss this bit of info in here
Now I have an idea of how the trader kept them alive after the mothers were killed. *Remembers that mare milk might be a subsitute and then remembers that Jasper is a male*

Also, I'd think that the trader would have experience with foxes because maybe he used to work on a fur farm, I guess? I'm also thinking that the trader would have some sort of assistant that would help take care of the kits.
I'd think that he (the trader(s)) would keep the kits alive because a fox-fur item would fetch up a high price, especially with the silver fox and Arctic fox pelts.
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#12
I have a suggestion / idea. :>

I think that the main problem is that a trader would need a good, solid reason to bring an exotic animal—the arctic fox—south to trade. The trader is an important part of this equation, provided that you’re able to address other issues: caring for the foxes, finding goods to trade for them, etc. The arctic fox also complicates things. If you remove the arctic fox, it would be easier to find a solution.

So, what if we remove the problem fox? What if the trader doesn’t raise kits for their fur? And what if Avinalora gets a fox from something else?

The trader might just be a normal trapper, and when he bags a grey fox, he sees that the vixen he caught left behind kits. He feels guilty—he wants to make a living and is a good furrier, but they’re still baby animals—and tries to take care of them. Maybe only one gray fox kit survives, and when Avinalora and co. see him, they offer to take the fox off his hands.

The other fox—the red fox (silver morph)—could be a kit that they find separately. Maybe it’s orphaned, like the other fox. Maybe a different NPC has a fox companion who is having a hard time feeding all of her kits, so they hand one off?

It’s still somewhat uncommon—finding two fox kits separately around the same time (and it doesn't necessarily have to be at the same time; why rush it?)—but it’s a lot more likely than finding a fur trader carting around kits of three species. Again, Avinalora and her companions would have a much easier time caring for two baby foxes instead of three (though keep in mind that the gray fox is a different species than the red fox, and might have slightly different needs).

Basically, my suggestions / discouragements and the answers of the ‘SA as a whole are meant to make it easier on you! Oftentimes, the simplest answer is the best. ;) This is why we recommend companions native to eastern Canada—not to suppress creativity, but because it’s much easier to explain why they’re around. As you can see from the length of this thread so far, a complicated plan can lead to long discussions and, oftentimes, realism errors.

If your heart is set on something, that’s understandable—but if you want a direct yes/no answer from the entire administration, you can submit a realism check. It’s still fine to ask questions here, of course, and other members can help you brainstorm, but it helps if you want an official answer.
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#13
Vesper Wrote:The trader might just be a normal trapper, and when he bags a grey fox, he sees that the vixen he caught left behind kits. He feels guilty—he wants to make a living and is a good furrier, but they’re still baby animals—and tries to take care of them. Maybe only one gray fox kit survives, and when Avinalora and co. see him, they offer to take the fox off his hands.
I love the idea!

Vesper Wrote:The other fox—the red fox (silver morph)—could be a kit that they find separately. Maybe it’s orphaned, like the other fox. Maybe a different NPC has a fox companion who is having a hard time feeding all of her kits, so they hand one off?
I could see Avinalora doing this.

And wait a second, I thought Arctic Foxes have a summer coat?
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#14
Yes, but northern summers would logically be cooler than southern summers. :) The fact that the arctic fox comes so far away is also a factor -- and a large part of the argument. Even if it's feasible for one to survive here (and it might be), how would it come to be in 'Souls?

But yeah, I'm glad you like the alternative ideas though!
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#15
Vesper Wrote:Yes, but northern summers would logically be cooler than southern summers. :)
I really didn't think about that, but I might think of a solution.

Vesper Wrote:The fact that the arctic fox comes so far away is also a factor -- and a large part of the argument. Even if it's feasible for one to survive here (and it might be), how would it come to be in 'Souls?
What if an Arctic Wolf trader comes to 'Souls with an Arctic Fox and trades it to a Coyote fur trader and Avinalora runs into him? Then, the Arctic Fox who was pregnant has a pup and then the trader kills the mom and his assistant takes care of the fox and feeds it goat milk until it can eat solid food. They're taking care of the kit until it gets a winter coat so they can kill her for the fur.
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#16
The Arctic Fox does have a summer coat, and its range within North America makes it possible for it to survive in 'Souls, but the main problem is that it would be extremely unlikely for Avinalora to happen upon an Arctic Fox kit, a Red Fox kit, and a Grey Fox kit in the same time period.

Here's my two cents - if you want Avinalora to care for multiple foxes, you could have the trader find two Grey Fox kits and have Avinalora find the Red Fox kit later, so she'll end up caring for three fox kits overall. Unfortunately, however, I just don't think it's very probable that she would happen to come across so many different species within the same young age group around the same time. :(

I echo Raze's suggestion - it would be easiest to adjust the plot to account for only the Red and Grey Fox kits, or another combination of two species. If you're dead set on Avinalora finding all three separate species of kits within a window of time, it'd be best to submit a realism check to the 'Souls Assemblage account for an official answer on whether this would be allowed or not. :)
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#17
After some research, I have found a perfect fox! A white morph red fox! I think if Avinalora obtains that from a coyote trader who is convinced that it is an Arctic Fox and then Avinalora trades for the fox and overhearing that they were going to kill the pup.
Good/better idea?
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#18
I looked around, and it seems that the white morph Red Fox is a bit of a rare mutation? Again, it seems to me rather unrealistic for Avinalora to find so many fox kits in different situations in the same time frame. The first trader gives her a Grey Fox kit, which is fine, and then she finds a regular Red Fox kit in the wild, which is pretty coincidental on its own! For her to find yet another fox kit, independent of the first two, seems incredibly unlikely, regardless of its species.

If it were an Arctic Fox kit, this would be a near-impossible string of chance encounters unless Avinalora was actively seeking out fox kits. As it is, even if it were a regular Red Fox, it's extremely coincidental for her to just happen to find so many fox kits in a short span of time!

It would be most realistic for Avinalora to find one type of fox, either in the wild or through a trader. Finding two species of fox (Red Fox and Grey Fox) separately is very coincidental, but it can be done! If you're determined to have Avinalora care for a fox that has white coloring, perhaps the Grey Fox trader could have two Grey Fox kits, one of which has a lighter coat or white markings. Grey Foxes can't be completely white, but their fur can range from dark greys to browns and reds to light grays, so it's possible that one of them could be light-colored. :)
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#19
Lecustic fox? Its possible in many species and it would be obtained from a fur trader with the grey fox. The trades could think it would be an Arctic Fox? And I'd think Avinalora would find between two weeks and a month? Also, would foxes be allowed in Midnight Shores as NPCs?
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#20
It seems that the leucistic Gray Fox mutation is exceedingly rare, and almost never found in the wild, unfortunately! In addition, if the trader obtained the mutated fox from the same litter as the other Gray Fox, it's unlikely that they would think it's an Arctic Fox. ;) Perhaps it would be best if Avinalora simply took care of one or two regular Gray Foxes.

Any time between a month and several months would be a good time period to wait before Avinalora finds the Red Fox kit, so as to make it a tiny bit more realistic. :) Perhaps one of the fox kits could be albino instead? And yes, animal NPCs are allowed in Midnight Shores.
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#21
After a bit of thinking, I finally saw that maybe having to grey foxes would be a lot easier and I found some pictures of what I think to siblings will look like.

Luna Mist is the female and this is what I think her pelt would look like.
[Image: Gray-Fox-page-image.jpg]

And Garret Ash is the male. He has a darker pelt and more vibrant markings.

And then the Silver fox, Spencer Twilight

And could the foxes have different eye colors? Such as Spencer having silver eyes?

Sorry about my hard-headedness, sometimes I get really stubborn about things that I have my heart set on and it takes me a bit of time to see that I'm wrong.
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#22
The foxes should have naturally occurring eye colors as they are not affected by the virus which gives Luperci the genetics for strange colors.
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#23
Hmm, actually -- they should be able to have unusual eye colors, though this might have been a rule only recently clarified. Unusual pelt colors or markings are not permitted, though. The Creature rules were moved to Procedures:
Quote:Similar rules apply to creatures as to canine chracters: no extinct species, natural coat patterns, any eye color is acceptable, etc.
We accept non-Luperci with strange eye colors, anyway. :) I believe that NPC creature companions should be able to have unusual eye colors as well.
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#24
Vesper Wrote:Hmm, actually -- they should be able to have unusual eye colors, though this might have been a rule only recently clarified. Unusual pelt colors or markings are not permitted, though. The Creature rules were moved to Procedures:
Quote:Similar rules apply to creatures as to canine chracters: no extinct species, natural coat patterns, any eye color is acceptable, etc.
We accept non-Luperci with strange eye colors, anyway. :) I believe that NPC creature companions should be able to have unusual eye colors as well.

Woop my bad xD
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#25
This is a lovely compromise, Silverfrost! :) We never want to outright quash an idea when a realistic alternative is possible, and asking questions and discussing is always a great plan! Thanks for bearing with us, and good luck with your plot. ;)
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#26
Yay! Thanks for everyone's help!
*Throws cookies before dancing out the door*
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