pub/inn idea + a poll

[Vesna]

Edit: Changed the title to better suit the topic and added a poll.
Edit: Maybe this should go in the Plotting forum? I don't know

I've had an idea for a character for a while now and I wanted to run it by the people of Souls for input and whatever else you guys feel like adding. This new character wouldn't happen for awhile seeing as I need quite a few more posts with Vesna before I can request a 2nd char, but! I would REALLY like to do this.

The character, a male Luperci wolf, would "own" a tavern-like place, possibly with an inn included for weary travelers to hang their heads. Think of The Prancing Pony in LoTR. He would use a building in one of the human towns obviously. Perhaps he could have an NPC helper to make things run smoothly (like making the actual alcohol, defending the building from malicious invaders, etc). The way patrons earn their alcohol is through trade, favors, or whatever the tavern owner deems necessary- he might give it away if he's feeling generous or if he simply likes someone a lot. :P

This could add a lot of interesting opportunities and plot inspiration for characters. Imagine the bar fights, drunken shenanigans, mysterious strangers, awful mistakes, chance meetings, harlot nights, and all the other fun and drama that a public space for drinking could bring. x)

What do you guys think?

p.s. If I'm oblivious and Souls already has something like this then please forgive me!!

[Kiri]

An independent bar/club/inn-type establishment has been brought up a few times in the past, but it's always hit snags as far as getting implemented because something of that nature can't really be done without an entire pack on board.

Motivation and means are a big part of it. If the primary goal is trading, wouldn't it be easier to travel than to wait for the chance of passersbys who 1) want alcohol and 2) have things to trade for it? If the primary goal is entertaining, or meeting people, travel also seems like a more efficient option.

Alcohol takes a lot of time, resources, and space to brew. Protecting the resources and space in particular would be difficult for an individual, or even a small group. If brewing the alcohol and living off of it is their primary goal, it would make sense that they can't travel far, but it would probably still be more efficient to go to tradeposts and packs to trade directly, rather than focusing primarily on an established inn location. If they wanted to operate an inn, brew alcohol, and trade elsewhere, they'd pretty much need a pack's worth of resources to do so -- that's a lot of labor and protection needed.

[Lithia Napier]

maaaaybe a traveling bar? Like those meals on wheels trucks that pop up places?

[Kiri]

Traveling traders of a general sort make sense enough, but if alcohol is a big part of it, the question becomes where/who their supplier is and whether they're traveling back there regularly?

[Vesna]

I failed to explain the character more in-depth. He's an outgoing, high-functioning alcoholic type with a passion for ...well, alcohol. xD He literally eats, drinks, breaths the stuff and finds joy and meaning in sharing it with others, and what better way to do that than in a bar-like setting. There wouldn't be taps or anything "fancy" like that- just old salvaged containers with all manner of homemade brew in them. You bring up a valid point about travel for entertaining and meeting and such, but the idea of having a dedicated spot where Luperci know they can go to hang out is just as well. The character I had in mind would much rather settle in some place than be on the open road anyway. The only primary goal of this whole thing is to bring a fun, new, interesting experience to Souls.

I wouldn't have full control over the actions in the bar or my character. There would be in-depth descriptions of him and the space so that people could take liberties without me having to reply to every single thread involving the bar/barkeeper. That way anyone can roleplay in the bar whenever they feel like it and in whatever way they choose. It might be interesting to have a rule that if your character is in a thread in the bar then the barkeeper could throw a reply in here or there (even if he just pops in for a brief or trivial occurrence). Or not, just brainstorming.
I wouldn't be against there being several NPC characters helping out, each with an in-depth description so player's characters could interact with them according to their nature. Some of the NPC's would probably only be around during certain times or seasons to help out anyway, which could all be laid out.

As for the logistics of alcohol production- what if this character already has an established source elsewhere? Perhaps he comes from a family of alcohol producers who help him out from a distance- sending supplies and what not when needed. Another idea is that he and the NPC's forage mad amounts of berries and other wild fruit when they're available and make huge batches of wine all at once that are stocked in secret locations (to avoid a massive loss from thievery). He could also grow potatoes, yams, beets, and the like fairly easily, and on a large scale, which are great for making alcohol.

There could be an unspoken rule of sorts among the Luperci- messing with the bar or any of its resources is far more trouble than its worth. Why? Because you'll have a bunch of pissed-off loyal patrons (not to mention a raging barkeeper) looking for whoever messed with their precious alcohol/place of gathering. In that way it's protection is built-in. Not to say there couldn't be little hiccups here and there for realism sake! Which brings me to my last thought...

Realism is hugely subjective in a game where canines can shift into human-like beings and talk, wear clothes, trade, ride horses, fashion weapons, etc. xD I really think this could work, and why not make it work!? There is no harm in it, it's all about creativity and fun. I think it could help Souls grow and evolve... I mean realistically wouldn't the Luperci be growing and evolving over time just the way humans do? What if a single bar/inn setting sparked the beginning of an entire functioning town? That's just me thinking way ahead of myself and getting all imaginative though. Not saying it'll happen, it's just fun to think of the possibilities.

[Lucille]

I have some links that might be helpful for you as you think about this. :> As the NPC rules state, you can have one canine NPC for your character (except for puppies born onboard via puppy points). If you were to work through the realism issues brought up and have several players involved, you would need to look over the information on groups of loners. :)

[Vesna]

Thanks for the useful references, that would definitely hinder things. I also didn't realize The Outpost was disbanded until I just looked it up, and I read up on Freetown which doesn't seem like much of a viable option for garnering resources due to its downward spiral, but still... there's got to be something!! Unless players on Souls don't care for a tavern/inn setting? Then the whole point is moot anyway and I totally respect that, but if people want it maybe there is a way to make it work.

Maybe another option would be to form a pack in the future with the main goal of operating a tavern/inn?

Thoughts, ideas, opinions?

Edit: Changed the title to better suit the topic and added a poll.

[Vesper]

This is mostly personal opinion and my thoughts on the matter, not an ‘SA answer.

I do think that players have, in the past, referenced NPC-ran “bars” or establishments throughout ‘Souls. I don’t think that it’s impossible for these locations to exist, but they would probably be quite small and transient since resources and interest wax and wane depending on the seasons and other factors. My personal opinion is that it wouldn’t be too odd for a bartender to set up in a frequently-visited location and trade away some alcohol—but again, procurement is the problem, as is production (without a pack-sized group of NPCs to help).

As Myst alluded to, also, it becomes tricky with use of NPCs. While using a very small bar setting in a roleplay once or twice with various minor NPCs is okay, having several recurring NPCs or NPCs that exist to only do the character’s bidding is definitely not allowed. That is where playing the owner of a bar would be tricky. If several played characters banded together to rob/take over the bar, and the owner character used a dozen strong-arm NPCs to defeat them—it’d run into issues of misusing NPCs. :( Even using a ton of NPCs to make alcohol would be a problem.

I think that this is a fun idea in roleplay, but as Kiri mentioned, this idea has never successfully really been implemented (other than the Outpost, which as you noticed is disbanded; and even then the Outpost’s bar was not amazingly popular).

A pack could be possible, but you’d need to adhere to Pack Formation rules. Already, several packs make alcohol or are working on the resources to make alcohol; Vinátta has a vineyard, for example, and other packs have scavenged alcohol.

To address your mention of realism: Yes, this is a werewolf site, but we do have realism standards. We make exceptions for fun and are fine with fudging some things, but most of our realism rules are to prevent godmodding—such as a character magically obtaining a ton of “expensive” items/becoming “wealthy” without connections, or mastering blacksmithing and swordsmanship at a year of age (and honestly, the use of swords/iron/etc. are already a bit of a realism fudge for the technological era ‘Souls is set). Things like Luperci playing instruments isn't seen a a realism issue, even if it's not strictly realistic, until that Luperci magically makes a violin or magically masters twelve instruments in a month, for a hyperbolic example!

Already ‘Souls has evolved—there are packs with alcohol, packs with horses, other materials, etc. when there wasn’t before—and there are “towns” (like Freetown, Portland) that have already popped up off-board. So I don’t believe that is an issue, really!

That said, I am curious to see the results of the poll. :>

[Vesna]

Raze, thank you for the helpful input! You... raze many great points.

I have no intention of godmodding I swear xD, but that (plus a lot of other stuff you mentioned lol) got me thinking... This is totally dependent on the SA's approval and members' desire for it (which hopefully the poll will answer), but what if it was run completely by NPCs? Perhaps Vinátta and other packs with necessary resources could even do business of sorts with them?

[Semini]

Agreed with Kiri and Raze! The standards of realism aren't meant to squash anyone's fun or artistic freedom, but these limitations are to prevent a chaotic environment that would be decidedly un-fun. From personal experience, sites that allow for self-regulation (or lack the management of realism) end up turning into a trash heap really fast. It becomes about one-upping each other with the coolest gadgets and gizmos and super badass characters who are the best at everything straight from the womb, that's just not enjoyable.

Maybe it's just about changing the way you go about this idea, and not necessarily the idea itself. Everyone's mentioned how packs have the foundation and abilities to support something like a bar. I bet you could have a character join a pack and propose this idea to the leadership. How fun would it be to have a pack-sponsored bar? It could be a good move for a pack struggling to make diplomatic connections, and could also be a vulnerability for other packs to take advantage of (which generates plots, interest, drama), all sorts of fun can happen there too. And, you wouldn't have to deal as much with the NPC issue.

Of course you'd have to work out some kinks, but with some flexibility I think you can get the heart of what you want here.

[Vesna]

Lemme just say I think it's frustrating when people join writing/creativity-oriented roleplay forums with the mindset San and Raze mentioned. I might be wrong but I don't think the majority of Souls players are powerthirsty, we have a pretty amazing bunch I'd say. Or maybe they secretly wish for anarchy and chaos?! I hope not. *suspicious eyes* ok I'mma stop being silly nao.
For real tho, I roleplay 100% for the creative side of it- the writing, the character creation, plots, the creative potential, all that fun stuff. So maybe I'm coming from too innocent and idealistic of a mindset haha.

San, I dunno if you saw my last post but I mentioned another possible idea of bringing in a completely NPC-run establishment.
I know Raze said the bar at The Outpost wasn't very popular, but I think if there was a dedicated, well thought out location for Luperci to gather, drink, and do whatever it would attract players.

My main concern is that the name be based off of The Prancing Pony in LoTR. xD The Frisky Fawn? The Dancing Deer? Those were off the top of my head but there's endless possibilities.

[Semini]

Oh! Sorry, didn't meant to beat a dead horse, haha. I agree, I think that Souls is a great community! But I think the rules are what help to keep it that way, that's all I meant. xD

I don't think your mindset is too idealistic! I also get caught up in the creation aspect of things and it's hard for me to slow down and think about all the work that would go into it. It's great that you've opened a discussion about it!

I just saw your post now, ahaha! I mean, I think if players really came together behind a bar idea/proposal then it would be implemented, but yeah, like Raze said, it wasn't very popular when there was an NPC run establishment. There's no harm that I can think of in trying again, but I think something would have to change in order to garner interest from players.

As a sidebar sort of thing, I also don't necessarily agree with something having to be popular in order for it to exist. A bar isn't always going to suit a character's needs, but when you need it, you want it, you know? I do think there is something to be said for having stuff available for players to use when their plots allow.

Not to push my pack-run-bar idea, but I feel like at least it involves or potentially could involve the use of other players in the bar's function and foundation, and may involve less work in setting up. I personally think it would be fun to have say, Semini head down to the Wine Bar in Vinatta for a drink with some allies :P Or a sneaky Salsolan hit up VN's wine bar to get some intel on their neighbors, maybe. Idk?

The point that I am trying to make is that for some ideas to be relevant to Souls as a whole, it might need to be incorporated in the most active places - packs have active players, packs have existing relationships to other packs, those things are going to garner the most interest.

:D

[Vesper]

Lemme just say I think it's frustrating when people join writing/creativity-oriented roleplay forums with the mindset San and Raze mentioned. I might be wrong but I don't think the majority of Souls players are powerthirsty, we have a pretty amazing bunch I'd say. Or maybe they secretly wish for anarchy and chaos?! I hope not. *suspicious eyes* ok I'mma stop being silly nao.

I think it's worth saying that not all players who might encounter realism or godmodding issues are malicious. :P Sometimes a younger or overeager player inexperienced with RPGs (or one at the level 'Souls is at) might overlook a realism problem, or not know that it's not okay for their character to be a master in ten unrelated fields, etc. I'm not sure if the "mindset" comment was directed at us (I am fairly jaded haha) or players who might try this, though. If I thought 'Souls didn't have a mature, friendly, awesome community -- I wouldn't be here.

I think the idea of a pack-run bar would be very interesting. It would have its flaws, but it makes sense for the resources. :> Many packs establish little trading outposts of their own, after all, so if they have alcohol and entertainment, I don't see why a pack wouldn't want to provide those services in exchange for others' goods!

As far as another official (or unofficial) NPC-ran bar -- if you draft a solid idea and shoot it the 'SA account, we can give an official answer. The more research and problem-solving you do beforehand, the easier it will be on us, too. :)

[Vesna]

Oh yuss, hope I didn't sound like an ass. I completely agree with you guys about why those rules are in place. I tend to go on silly tangents though hehe.

I also agree it doesn't have to be popular IC wise. A better word to use would be 'well-known', both IC and OOC.

A pack bar would be great but there's the issue of territory, at least in my vision of what it would be. A pack might not feel safe or ok with letting a bunch of rando's into their private lands. I imagine a place where -any-body is welcome (even non-Luperci could come lick up a bowl of the good stuff if they really wanted to xD)- where you're just as likely to find weary travelers, loners, and mysterious strangers as any member of any pack regardless of their status with each other. Friends and enemies could be found in the same place, but out of an unwritten code of sorts there is relative peace among the various patrons (lest they wish to be kicked out, banned, shamed, or what have you). Once a patron steps over the threshold it is like a neutral stomping ground for everybody.

As for the pack bar idea- there can always be more than one bar place! It's not like I'm the original creator of the idea to begin with. xD Plus I'd love if this discussion sparked other people to implement their own versions of the idea.

[Vesna]

Gonna reply again cos I just saw ze Raze reply. NOOOO I wasn't directing anything petty at you guys. Scout's honor. I see what you mean about the little rascals who might not know better, but that's an easy enough remedy just by showing them the way... which Souls does a beautiful job of, obviously, cos the proof is in the pudding. :P

I will get right on that though! It's going to take time, and I'll probably end up asking other people for input and ideas, so if anyone is reading this and is interested in co-creating let me know. ;)

[Aenan Pyr]

I like the idea, but it may be hard to pull off. I'd help if I had a second character running around, but I currently do not. However, the whole thought of it got gears turning in my head. Instead of the bar being ran without the logistics of a pack, it could be ran a bunch of loners who are willing to help out with it. Though, that may cause them to become a pack of their own(if enough numbers are garnered, and enough stick around.) If that's the case then they'd have enough numbers to run and maintain the place, as well as enough to be able to patrol and harvest from their territory. Instead of having closed borders, they could be open to public use (With laws against poaching on their lands, etc.) And with this they could host meetings between packs on neutral ground, and of course be open to any and all just coming through.

If it ends up going through and going the way way I explained, I'd be happy to help where I can. I'm limited right now though, but all in all, whichever way the bread is sliced; I think the idea is a good one. If it can be implemented, I'd like to see what could come of it.

[Fang Espinoza]

I don't know if this link will help or not but it's about groups of loners.

I was thinking that it's possible it could work, potentially, if you had a small group of played loner characters who get together with no intention of ever starting a pack.

That way there is a number of others helping out for protection and staffing means for the bar. There would still be holes to fill such as where they get the alcohol, if they trade anything other than alcohol, if they actually are staying in one place and the like but it's an interesting prospect to think about and consider.

[Aeron Ganesa]

A pack ran bar could be neat, set up at the borders edge? Used as the packs trading hub or more. Anathema has a hit or two where they bring loner guests. It's just within the pack borders. That could be a neat idea for a pack.

[Kiri]

Wooo, this topic exploded while I was out of town. :o

The problem with independent, fully NPC-run establishments like the Outpost is that most characters and players don't have formal connections to them, and so interest is very limited. People don't tend to think of it outside of an immediate need and forget very quickly it's there (I don't think the Outpost was important to most people outside of an easy way to get horses).

The problem with independent player-run establishments is that a job as dedicated as a barkeep dictates all of that character's time, so the player ends up with a lot of similar threads and loses interest quickly. The problem can be stemmed somewhat by multiple players agreeing to play characters related to the establishment (which would also aid in the NPC limit problem a tad), but it's rare to find even a single player so very dedicated to this sort of idea, much less a group of active ones.

That's why, in addition to all the practical realism concerns of motivation and resource procurement, I think it makes the most sense for something like this to be run by a pack. There you have a healthy mix of NPCs and played characters who could partake in its maintenance and security and a lot more options for interaction.

The tricky thing with a pack-run establishment is in territorial boundaries and potential pack-relations issues, which is probably why no pack has really pursued the idea. I think while "unspoken rules" are a nice idea in theory, in reality and in active roleplay and interesting plots, there will always be rowdy characters who cause a scene, and if they're from another pack, that could cause problems for both packs. A bar environment almost begs for conflict of some sort, which many packs and pack leadership work hard to avoid.

That isn't to say there aren't ways around that though. A bar on the edge of pack territories with very clear rules for entering could do wonders. Patrons, upon entering, could be made to agree that any action they take does not reflect their pack and that any damage done to the establishment justifies any punishment to come. Pack leadership could formalise through a meeting with other packs that if their members act out at the bar, they have every right to punish them without getting the rest of the pack involved, etc. Definitely a lot of IC rules could be put into place to foster a bar environment that doesn't threaten pack relations.

But it's all up to the packs and their leadership if any of them want to take on the task of organising and establishing something like that though. It's a lot of work, after all. :P