Help with skills and stuff for a puppy/youngster
#1
Hello, it's Silver again, back at it with skill trouble.

So I have Alvira Phoenix, whom I hope to pick up in the summer. Her skills are a bit of a mess and I could use some help with making sure that it's okay/acceptable. Here is her skills section (More info/descriptions in the Show thing) (The post-shifting skills section with the skill levels is mainly a note for me since my brain needs that for some weird reason.)

So, the pre-shifting skills are mainly what she was exposed to when she was younger. Her reading levels were based off of mine when I was her age, roughly. I may not be the best to base off of since I was a bit advanced, though I did note that some concepts or aspects might take longer for her to get the hang of or understand an she needs an explanation or a demonstration (also based off of me).

Her fighting skills were the hardest bit for me and I tried to give her a lot of weaknesses and drawbacks. She was training regularly for a lot of her fighting skills but I don't want to make her too overpowered. I also tried to explain her basic first aid skill as just simple things like a cut or small scratch she can do but not a serious wound or a cold. I also tried to clarify her ornithomancy as just impressions or feelings from what she interprets from the bird's behaviors and her visions are rare and happen when she hallucinates or is dreaming.

I gave her a skilled/proficient for Running, stealth, climbing, evasion, agility (I need to condense that probably) since some of it was natural and she build upon that. I did lower the animal handling level from intermediate to competent, though Alvira was raised around birds and some other animals so I'm not sure if she can be at proficient in that or not. I tried to make her other skills quite a bit weaker, especially her fighting skills since I remember what happened with Seraphina and her large amount of combat skills.

Should I change or adjust anything? I am working on Laskys where she does train and learn things so I have something to go off of (her weapon training one should be up today once I finish it). Is there anything I should keep in mind?

TL;DR: Are Alvira's skills okay/realistic and what should be fixed/changed?

(Sorry if some parts don't make sense, I'm a bit sleep deprived and fried)
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#2
Pre-shift skills look okay to me, except for "Has been exposed to magic since she was young," which I find unnecessary and misleading as it 1) isn't a skill, but a note of exposure, and 2) implies the existence of magic. As you probably already know, belief in magic is fine, actual magic is not, and all references to magic -- both IC and OOC -- should be very clear on this. In the IC sphere, it is definitely possible to write magic in a way that emphasizes a character's belief, while still being clear to the reader that it is only a character's belief.

The post-shifting section presents a lot more problems as it includes skills mostly as broad headings, which might encompass a lot of different things, but does not elaborate. For example, "animal handling," does not specify species or limitations. It's difficult to extrapolate "expanded on" skills since animal handling isn't mentioned in pre-shifting skills, merely comprehension of certain low speech dialects, which is definitely not the same as "animal handling." You can talk to a crow while not having any idea how to hold one.

For birds in particular, especially more intelligent species like raptors and corvids, "handling" as a skill is kind of questionable, in my opinion, since a lot depends on the temperament of individual birds. With animals like horses, where a Luperci demonstrates full ownership, in most cases, handling experience can be found in how to act around horses, how to maintain their health, grooming, tack handling, and other related things, but just because a character is exposed to a lot of birds doesn't mean that all birds will automatically like them. For "partnership"-type animals in the 'Soulsverse, "handling" can be a misleading sort of skill. I would take this away entirely and maybe instead focus on experience with low speech, interpretation, and an ability to gain birds' trust that way.

"Animal handling" is vague and can be misleading. "Low speech fluency" is specific, clear, not misleading, and can lead into the same sort of skill demonstration you're probably looking for.

Many prior concerns apply to "Ornithomancy, spells, rituals, magic" as well. I think conflating of terms may also contribute to this. "Skill" and "knowledge" have different implications. If a character is described as "skilled" in magic, the immediate assumption is that magic exists. Someone "knowledgeable" about magic doesn't have the same immediate implication.

"Literacy" apparently "Started after shifting," but she can read pre-shifting?

"Hunting" is vague and a post-shift skill implies bipedal hunting which implies use of a weapon which isn't specified. Hunting can be learned pre-shift and a lot of adult Luperci still hunt in Lupus form because it's their natural hunting form and requires no extra equipment.

"Fighting" skills are once again vague and cover a wide swath of types. The list implies intention to develop all three types of fighting equally, which we've discouraged before.

'Souls doesn't have a numbers system for stats or skills, but the idea is still there and encouraged via realistic development of skills. Imagine that all characters start with 5 skill points and gain 5 skill points every six months. A one year old character has 10 whole SP to invest in skills. As a Luperci, some skills like "Running" and "Hunting (in Lupus form)" might start off at a 2 because they're natural skills for the species. Maybe Alvira invests 3 SP into corvid low speech and 1 into cat low speech. That's already 4 SP used. 2 SP for basic reading skills. 4 SP remain to invest in fighting. What kind of fighting? Knife fighting and sword fighting take SP separately, though maybe investing SP in one reduces the SP cost for the other. It's not hard to imagine a whole system for this, and even though 'Souls doesn't mandate one, it may help illustrate investment into skills.

Skill points are basically time. If you spend time on one skill you can't spend it on another. Investment in some skills may help reduce time needed to be better at related skills, but you still need time.
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#3
Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:Pre-shift skills look okay to me, except for "Has been exposed to magic since she was young," which I find unnecessary and misleading as it 1) isn't a skill, but a note of exposure, and 2) implies the existence of magic. As you probably already know, belief in magic is fine, actual magic is not, and all references to magic -- both IC and OOC -- should be very clear on this. In the IC sphere, it is definitely possible to write magic in a way that emphasizes a character's belief, while still being clear to the reader that it is only a character's belief.
I could note that as a footnote or a note that it's only the belief in magic? She was raised in a coven and would be exposed to their magic and would later learn how to do her own rituals and spells.

Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:The post-shifting section presents a lot more problems as it includes skills mostly as broad headings, which might encompass a lot of different things, but does not elaborate. For example, "animal handling," does not specify species or limitations. It's difficult to extrapolate "expanded on" skills since animal handling isn't mentioned in pre-shifting skills, merely comprehension of certain low speech dialects, which is definitely not the same as "animal handling." You can talk to a crow while not having any idea how to hold one.

For birds in particular, especially more intelligent species like raptors and corvids, "handling" as a skill is kind of questionable, in my opinion, since a lot depends on the temperament of individual birds. With animals like horses, where a Luperci demonstrates full ownership, in most cases, handling experience can be found in how to act around horses, how to maintain their health, grooming, tack handling, and other related things, but just because a character is exposed to a lot of birds doesn't mean that all birds will automatically like them. For "partnership"-type animals in the 'Soulsverse, "handling" can be a misleading sort of skill. I would take this away entirely and maybe instead focus on experience with low speech, interpretation, and an ability to gain birds' trust that way.

"Animal handling" is vague and can be misleading. "Low speech fluency" is specific, clear, not misleading, and can lead into the same sort of skill demonstration you're probably looking for.
I made edits to the post-shifting skills to Low-Speech Fluency now.

Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:Many prior concerns apply to "Ornithomancy, spells, rituals, magic" as well. I think conflating of terms may also contribute to this. "Skill" and "knowledge" have different implications. If a character is described as "skilled" in magic, the immediate assumption is that magic exists. Someone "knowledgeable" about magic doesn't have the same immediate implication.
Maybe I could make a footnote that it's her own beliefs? I made some notes about the magical skills in her Future Skills section as well. I could fix the words skill to knowledge?

Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:"Literacy" apparently "Started after shifting," but she can read pre-shifting?
I kind of thought that Avinalora would at least have read to her and Alvira might know a bit about reading before she could shift. I moved the pre-shifting reading note to her post-shifting section.

Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:"Hunting" is vague and a post-shift skill implies bipedal hunting which implies use of a weapon which isn't specified. Hunting can be learned pre-shift and a lot of adult Luperci still hunt in Lupus form because it's their natural hunting form and requires no extra equipment.
I noted in her Future Skills section (which is more of elaboration) that she mainly hunts in her feral forms which is mostly in Secui form which she wouldn't have access to before shifting. I'll note to form in post-shifting.

Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:"Fighting" skills are once again vague and cover a wide swath of types. The list implies intention to develop all three types of fighting equally, which we've discouraged before.
I noted in the Future Skills section that she is notably weakest in unarmed combat, slightly better in feral combat, and best in armed combat. I also made sure to note her weaknesses which each fighting type. I don't plan for her to

Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:'Souls doesn't have a numbers system for stats or skills, but the idea is still there and encouraged via realistic development of skills. Imagine that all characters start with 5 skill points and gain 5 skill points every six months. A one year old character has 10 whole SP to invest in skills. As a Luperci, some skills like "Running" and "Hunting (in Lupus form)" might start off at a 2 because they're natural skills for the species. Maybe Alvira invests 3 SP into corvid low speech and 1 into cat low speech. That's already 4 SP used. 2 SP for basic reading skills. 4 SP remain to invest in fighting. What kind of fighting? Knife fighting and sword fighting take SP separately, though maybe investing SP in one reduces the SP cost for the other. It's not hard to imagine a whole system for this, and even though 'Souls doesn't mandate one, it may help illustrate investment into skills.

Skill points are basically time. If you spend time on one skill you can't spend it on another. Investment in some skills may help reduce time needed to be better at related skills, but you still need time.
I have planned for her to mainly focus on armed combat (her future skills section did note that she would be training in only one weapon, a Nanigata which is a spear but with a blade-like edge) and be notably weaker at other forms of combat (though I kind of thought some aspects of feral combat would almost be instinctual?).

I thought that some skills that were natural (running, hunting, some aspects of feral combat such as biting and clawing, etc.) wouldn't involve as much time invested as armed combat or reading unless the character was going for mastery in the level?

And would the corvid and cat low-speech cost anything since she was raised in a family with a cat that was almost like a nanny/family member and she was raised around her mother speaking to her birds and around a couple of corvids? I thought it would be similar to growing up in a multi-lingual household?
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#4
Re: magic, I just wouldn't mention this in a "skills" section at all. Consider having another section altogether to address ritual magic and knowledge thereof.

Quote:I kind of thought that Avinalora would at least have read to her and Alvira might know a bit about reading before she could shift. I moved the pre-shifting reading note to her post-shifting section.

You don't learn to read by being read to... Tongue Knowing about reading isn't the same as reading. Changes look fine though.

Quote:I noted in the Future Skills section that she is notably weakest in unarmed combat, slightly better in feral combat, and best in armed combat. I also made sure to note her weaknesses which each fighting type.

Having weaknesses don't necessarily balance out having skill. Consider that even if someone is bad at playing piano, they still invested time and energy to learn to play piano -- they used "skill points" on it, regardless of never becoming an expert.

Even if Alvira is "worst" at unarmed combat, if she trained in it, she devoted time to it, and that's time she didn't spend honing combat skills in other areas. Using our SP analogy, even a character investing 3-4 SP into something might not be great at it. Sometimes SP/time investments don't bear the fruit you want, and that's realistic.

I agree that many aspects of feral combat would be instinctual, but those are also things that I don't feel are worth including in a list of skills either. Every canine can fight. It's only worth mentioning if they're particularly good or particularly bad at it. I think I mentioned previously that it's good to consider that not every single little thing is worth mentioning, since mentioning it implies that it's significant, which implies probably a higher skill level than intended.

Re: multiilngual learning. The learning curve would be smaller for characters raised in and around the language, so perhaps consider it as an SP discount on the skill, but it'd still take some time and specific, intended learning to pick it up, especially considering this isn't learning another canine dialect. The difference between canine high speech and bird low speech is more vast than the difference between any human language, imo.
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#5
Regarding magic: basically what Kiri is saying is that magic is a BELIEF, not a SKILL, in ‘Souls. It should really be compared to faith/religion rather than an ability one is skilled at.

For example, you probably wouldn’t list “Christianity” or “Islam” as a skill. If I have a character who knows the Quran front to back, I would put that in a “beliefs” section. They might have prayers or rites memorized, but you wouldn’t really put that down in a skill section, unless it was a related skill like “good orator/public speaker” for preaching. Does that make sense?

Because magic does not exist in the ‘Soulsverse, one cannot be good or bad at it. Shy ICly, a character might be better at following instructions or memorizing rituals and be considered a “good” spellcaster or witch, but OOCly, it makes no difference.
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#6
Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:You don't learn to read by being read to... Tongue Knowing about reading isn't the same as reading. Changes look fine though.
...Well my mum told me wrong lol

Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:Having weaknesses don't necessarily balance out having skill. Consider that even if someone is bad at playing piano, they still invested time and energy to learn to play piano -- they used "skill points" on it, regardless of never becoming an expert.

Even if Alvira is "worst" at unarmed combat, if she trained in it, she devoted time to it, and that's time she didn't spend honing combat skills in other areas. Using our SP analogy, even a character investing 3-4 SP into something might not be great at it. Sometimes SP/time investments don't bear the fruit you want, and that's realistic.

Ah, I see! I'll be sure to keep that in mind!

Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:I agree that many aspects of feral combat would be instinctual, but those are also things that I don't feel are worth including in a list of skills either. Every canine can fight. It's only worth mentioning if they're particularly good or particularly bad at it. I think I mentioned previously that it's good to consider that not every single little thing is worth mentioning, since mentioning it implies that it's significant, which implies probably a higher skill level than intended.
I normally list most skills since I have the memory of a goldfish at times and probably would have forgotten some character's skills if I didn't have the skills section to reference. I will keep that in mind when figuring out Alvira's feral fighting skills.

Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:Re: multiilngual learning. The learning curve would be smaller for characters raised in and around the language, so perhaps consider it as an SP discount on the skill, but it'd still take some time and specific, intended learning to pick it up, especially considering this isn't learning another canine dialect. The difference between canine high speech and bird low speech is more vast than the difference between any human language, imo.
I see! I'll keep that in mind concerning her low-speech knowledge.

Vicira Tears Wrote:Regarding magic: basically what Kiri is saying is that magic is a BELIEF, not a SKILL, in ‘Souls. It should really be compared to faith/religion rather than an ability one is skilled at.

For example, you probably wouldn’t list “Christianity” or “Islam” as a skill. If I have a character who knows the Quran front to back, I would put that in a “beliefs” section. They might have prayers or rites memorized, but you wouldn’t really put that down in a skill section, unless it was a related skill like “good orator/public speaker” for preaching. Does that make sense?

Because magic does not exist in the ‘Soulsverse, one cannot be good or bad at it. Shy ICly, a character might be better at following instructions or memorizing rituals and be considered a “good” spellcaster or witch, but OOCly, it makes no difference.
Ah, I see! I was also trying not to offend or disregard anyone's beliefs concerning it when I was answering the questions. I might make it it's own section in the Traits section since it could use some balancing out. I'll keep that in mind for the future~
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#7
Quote:I normally list most skills since I have the memory of a goldfish at times and probably would have forgotten some character's skills if I didn't have the skills section to reference. I will keep that in mind when figuring out Alvira's feral fighting skills.

If a character has so many skills you can't even remember them all, they probably have too many skills. Wink

I don't think you'd forget that a canine can bite things and perform instinctual self-defense just because you didn't specifically list it. I'd consider this akin to noting that a canine can walk -- it's a given and not worth mentioning unless they are bad at it (which is very notable) or there's some other unique aspect to it.
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#8
Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:
Quote:I normally list most skills since I have the memory of a goldfish at times and probably would have forgotten some character's skills if I didn't have the skills section to reference. I will keep that in mind when figuring out Alvira's feral fighting skills.

If a character has so many skills you can't even remember them all, they probably have too many skills. Wink
This. And even if the amount isn't necessarily unrealistic, if you can't remember a skill, they probably aren't important to that character -- which is another angle to come at character/skill creation. This is more general character advice coming up, rather than about realism, but I think it is important for you to hear it. Shy

Try to think about why you want this particular character to have a certain skill. Try to come up with a reason beyond "it's cool and I want a character to have it." The same goes for quirks and NPCs.

Does an NPC add something to a character? Will you remember and explore that relationship, or is it just a cool, exotic accessory? Is a quirk, disability, or belief suitable for your character and the direction you want to develop them in, or is it just “something different” to do?

For example with skills: I’ll never forget that Vicira is good with horses, or that Skoll is a good fighter. These are their most mastered skills, but also very important parts of their characters. For Vici, it is a source of great pride as well as a connection with her mother. Skoll picks fights all the time, and he is powerfully motivated to protect his pack and family. These main skills are interconnected with their character: not something you can simply “forget” about.

For Alvira, ask yourself about what her skills say about her character. What is most important to her? How does she feel about her skills? If she had to describe herself, how would she? “I am a witch who knows how to read raven wings” – or, “I fight to protect my coven,” or even “I fight because I find joy in improving my body and mind”? There are a lot of motivations and reasons. These are stronger than: “Well, I know how to use a spear, and I know some herbs, and I can sew things sometimes.”

From a skills-listing standpoint: Kiri has that covered.

From a character standpoint: read advice. Ask yourself those questions. Try building from the ground up rather than listing skills. Pick an identity for your character and figure out what makes sense for her. Be critical of your ideas and don’t go with the first whim.
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#9
To add, "skill sections" are a relatively new thing in character profiles. Many players went for years without specifically listing any skills at all, but it was clear enough from their history and personality what types of things they were good at. If you had to write a character profile without an explicit grocery list of skills, how would you approach that? :O

It isn't inherently bad to have a skills list, but a character shouldn't be reduced to a skills list either.
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#10
(Sorry for the belated reply)

Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:If a character has so many skills you can't even remember them all, they probably have too many skills. Wink
Vicira Tears Wrote:For example with skills: I’ll never forget that Vicira is good with horses, or that Skoll is a good fighter. These are their most mastered skills, but also very important parts of their characters. For Vici, it is a source of great pride as well as a connection with her mother. Skoll picks fights all the time, and he is powerfully motivated to protect his pack and family. These main skills are interconnected with their character: not something you can simply “forget” about.
Yeah, it's just that I don't trust my memory to remember things which is often why I note everything down. Most of the time I remember the most obvious things or characters such as Avinalora's healing skill, Iorek's feral combat skills, and Dawn's archery. But sometimes I might forget about Avinalora's tracking skill or Iorek's swimming skill, which are fairly basic but sometimes I forget. I also try to note down weaknesses and ect as well to make sure I get things right. But yeah, having a skills list has always been a personal preference since I find it easier to refer to and to make sure I don't say "Character did not know how to do X" or "Character had never done X" before in a post and not notice until the thread is archived.

Vicira Tears Wrote:This. And even if the amount isn't necessarily unrealistic, if you can't remember a skill, they probably aren't important to that character -- which is another angle to come at character/skill creation. This is more general character advice coming up, rather than about realism, but I think it is important for you to hear it. Shy
Vicira Tears Wrote:Try to think about why you want this particular character to have a certain skill. Try to come up with a reason beyond "it's cool and I want a character to have it." The same goes for quirks and NPCs.

Does an NPC add something to a character? Will you remember and explore that relationship, or is it just a cool, exotic accessory? Is a quirk, disability, or belief suitable for your character and the direction you want to develop them in, or is it just “something different” to do?
Kyrios Lykoi Wrote:It isn't inherently bad to have a skills list, but a character shouldn't be reduced to a skills list either.
I think I really did need this and will keep this in mind for the future as well as now. I've always had a slight NPC problem and skills problem that I'm trying to work on and this will help me a lot.

Vicira Tears Wrote:For Alvira, ask yourself about what her skills say about her character. What is most important to her? How does she feel about her skills? If she had to describe herself, how would she? “I am a witch who knows how to read raven wings” – or, “I fight to protect my coven,” or even “I fight because I find joy in improving my body and mind”? There are a lot of motivations and reasons. These are stronger than: “Well, I know how to use a spear, and I know some herbs, and I can sew things sometimes.”
Vicira Tears Wrote:From a character standpoint: read advice. Ask yourself those questions. Try building from the ground up rather than listing skills. Pick an identity for your character and figure out what makes sense for her. Be critical of your ideas and don’t go with the first whim.

She would most likely consider herself a "warrior witch" though she finds her "Running, stealth, climbing, evasion, agility" skill (I need to condense that) is important to her since she feels that she feels that she is the best at it and to her, it's a useful and what her personality does cater to with her quick thinking, wit, cunning, and guile. But after that, her combat and witchcraft abilities equally important after that since she took to the nanigata and her reaction here. Her feral combat skill would also be an important skill to her since it was something her mother taught her and she felt that she was best suited towards with her Secui form. And spending her youth in Anathema and CoR being exposed to witchcraft put her on that path. Her low-speech skills would also be important to her ornithomancy path as well. Her healing and sewing skills were taught to her by her family and she finds them both useful to her while hunting and reading were basic skills she had to learn.
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#11
Alvira Phoenix Wrote:She would most likely consider herself a "warrior witch" though she finds her "Running, stealth, climbing, evasion, agility" skill (I need to condense that) is important to her since she feels that she feels that she is the best at it and to her, it's a useful and what her personality does cater to with her quick thinking, wit, cunning, and guile. But after that, her combat and witchcraft abilities equally important after that since she took to the nanigata and her reaction here. Her feral combat skill would also be an important skill to her since it was something her mother taught her and she felt that she was best suited towards with her Secui form. And spending her youth in Anathema and CoR being exposed to witchcraft put her on that path. Her low-speech skills would also be important to her ornithomancy path as well. Her healing and sewing skills were taught to her by her family and she finds them both useful to her while hunting and reading were basic skills she had to learn.
To me, it still sounds like you are listing off every skill and attempting to justify it. You are relating it back to Alvira and her feelings, which is good, but it still sounds like a school assignment rather than a character sketch. Shy Again, I recommend going from the ground up.

You mention Alvira considers herself a “warrior witch,” and it sounds like her skills in agility/stealth are equally important to her. I feel like this is a good foundation to start from. These skills can relate to each other and help create a character.

She uses her cunning and agility to be a good fighter – maybe she is proud of her mind? Her faith also seems equally important. How do these tie into each other? Now Alvira is knowledgeable about one weapon, as well as evasion/agility and low speech (a skill for her “witchcraft”). For a young character, that is pretty good. Shy Even an older character can be proficient in only those few things, but just be even better at them!

And so why bother adding the other skills? Feral combat, healing, and sewing all sounds like things her family is trying to teach her because they place importance on it or that it’s “useful.” But you might find that “useful” is less of a motivation than “this is fun and I’m good at it.” Learning how to do taxes is useful, but who would waste time on that when they could be improving on one of their passions, like playing an instrument or drawing?

So why should these be important to Alvira when she could be focusing on the few skills she has? Logically, these might make sense to learn or be “useful,” but remember that this would be splitting her between a ton of different lessons. That wouldn’t be very fun for Alvira, who would probably be daydreaming about her next nanigata lesson. This could give you some fun conflict in her youth. What is her relationship with Avinalora like versus her relationship with her nanigata mentor?

(Basic skills like hunting and reading are okay, because any Luperci has the instinct to hunt simple critters to survive, and reading was introduced from a young age. I don’t think you’ll forget those.)



TL;DR – Rather than listing skills and trying to find out what is important to Alvira, figure out the few things that are truly important to her character/that she values, and take out the skills with “weaker” justifications. Nanigata, agility, low speech = good and she can improve on those as she gets older.
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#12
Vicira Tears Wrote:To me, it still sounds like you are listing off every skill and attempting to justify it. You are relating it back to Alvira and her feelings, which is good, but it still sounds like a school assignment rather than a character sketch. Shy Again, I recommend going from the ground up.

You mention Alvira considers herself a “warrior witch,” and it sounds like her skills in agility/stealth are equally important to her. I feel like this is a good foundation to start from. These skills can relate to each other and help create a character.

She uses her cunning and agility to be a good fighter – maybe she is proud of her mind? Her faith also seems equally important. How do these tie into each other? Now Alvira is knowledgeable about one weapon, as well as evasion/agility and low speech (a skill for her “witchcraft”). For a young character, that is pretty good. Shy Even an older character can be proficient in only those few things, but just be even better at them!

Yep! I'm counting on a lot of mistakes on her end with her skills. She's had a couple of slip-ups with low-speech and at times in some threads I imagine her just pointing or making wide signals to direct the birds since she doesn't know certain words yet. In most to all of her skills, she's a novice in pretty much all of them or even less than that.
(I don't think I've ever actually done a character sketch before and I think school trained me too well XD)

Vicira Tears Wrote:And so why bother adding the other skills? Feral combat, healing, and sewing all sounds like things her family is trying to teach her because they place importance on it or that it’s “useful.” But you might find that “useful” is less of a motivation than “this is fun and I’m good at it.” Learning how to do taxes is useful, but who would waste time on that when they could be improving on one of their passions, like playing an instrument or drawing?

So why should these be important to Alvira when she could be focusing on the few skills she has? Logically, these might make sense to learn or be “useful,” but remember that this would be splitting her between a ton of different lessons. That wouldn’t be very fun for Alvira, who would probably be daydreaming about her next nanigata lesson. This could give you some fun conflict in her youth. What is her relationship with Avinalora like versus her relationship with her nanigata mentor?
I'll probably take out sewing since she probably won't learn it for a while seeing as some things have changed for her. I'm not sure what to do with her healing skill though I lowered it to novice since she has been said to know some herbs already.

I may also lower her focus on unarmed combat or merge feral and unarmed together possibly? She fights in an almost feral manner even on two legs and since things have changed, she probably would primarily use feral combat and as of now, use the principles of which in Optime combat.

Since as of now, her development will be a lot different for plot reasons since she will be primarily sticking close to her mother but her learning shouldn't change too much~

Vicira Tears Wrote:(Basic skills like hunting and reading are okay, because any Luperci has the instinct to hunt simple critters to survive, and reading was introduced from a young age. I don’t think you’ll forget those.)
(Oaky)

Vicira Tears Wrote:TL;DR – Rather than listing skills and trying to find out what is important to Alvira, figure out the few things that are truly important to her character/that she values, and take out the skills with “weaker” justifications. Nanigata, agility, low speech = good and she can improve on those as she gets older.
Okay! I'll go through her skills and see what I can move out~
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#13
Quote:I'm not sure what to do with her healing skill though I lowered it to novice since she has been said to know some herbs already.

This is one of the problems with a grocery list of "skills" and the desire to record every tiny little thing a character might know.

As I mentioned, making a point to specifically list something as a skill implies a lot. Even at the lowest and most basic of levels, if you bothered to list it, it seems like it should be important to the character. But it's totally fine to have working understanding of things that aren't "skills" per se.

It is totally fine to have "some knowledge of herbs" without having a specific "healing skill."

You aren't likely to forget that Avinalora is a healer. You aren't likely to forget that Alvira is Avinalora's daughter. It makes perfect sense that Alvira can have "some knowledge of herbs" give those former two facts. She absolutely does not need to have any specific "healing skill" in order for that to hold true.

But I think as soon as you specifically list a "healing skill," it becomes easy for both you and others to misunderstand the extent of actual skill that's present. Basic knowledge of a thing isn't the same as having skill.

I have the basic ability to identify cooking herbs and can use them in cooking, but honestly, I have absolutely zero ability to actually use those cooking herbs in a manner anyone would think of as "skillful." I know what pepper looks like and what it tastes like but that sure doesn't mean my dumping a ton of it on everything is a "skill."

Quote:I may also lower her focus on unarmed combat or merge feral and unarmed together possibly? She fights in an almost feral manner even on two legs and since things have changed, she probably would primarily use feral combat and as of now, use the principles of which in Optime combat.

I don't think these are things that can be merged together, no. Fighting on all fours and fighting on two legs is inherently different, particularly if someone is supposed to have had focused training in one or the other. Can you imagine trying to translate specific techniques you're using when fighting on two legs to fighting on four?

A character might have certain styles that are present in both forms of fighting -- maybe they like to dart in, make an attack, and quickly jump back. This is something that can be done in either form, sure. But as soon as you get more specific than that? That's probably not something that translates as well.

It really only makes sense for fighting to be similar in multiple forms if the character is untrained in either form, imo.

Quote:Since as of now, her development will be a lot different for plot reasons since she will be primarily sticking close to her mother but her learning shouldn't change too much~

Another thing about grocery list skill-building -- it's often hard to predict where plots will take you, especially when a character is young. Better to build skills as you go and add to your list as-needed, rather than having a huge list from the get-go and not knowing how you're actually going to get there.

Not to mention, that makes things way less confusing for anyone trying to look up details about a character. Things planned for the future haven't happened yet; it might be best to keep only what's done and set on the wiki. Tongue You can always keep personal reference docs on your local computer.
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#14
Silver, why is low speech important to her divination skill?

Divination is the interpretation of signs and symbols. If she walks up to her birds and they tell her something, that is not divination. That is just a conversation.


It looks like with Alvira, you're just absorbing all of Avi's skillsets and interests. Perhaps you're doing that because you're so emotionally attached to Avi and don't want to let her go, but want a new char because I know you feel Avi has been painted into a corner. From what I see, at least from the perspective I can comment on with ritual magic, paganism, and divination, Alvira's skills are severely throttled. Alvira just turned 6 months a few days ago. She would be far too young and immature to have much of a handle or interest at all in those things... especially since Avinalora never practiced those skills either. It might be beneficial to just take a step back and reconsider why Alvira is picking up those skills. Are you sure this is the right path for this character? Are you certain you want to keep all these old Avi traits and not create something new? Didn't you talk about exploring a new path of faith/magic for her? Angels (which correspond with crystal magic and crystal divinatuin)? That could be really fun and interesting and might be a more dynamic system for her than the raven/bird divination (if I try spelling it Imma get it wrong).

I'm 100% with Kiri and her advice not to step in with a preset list of skills. Some interests for sure, but all of these skills? I mean, Alvira is only 6 months old. For the first two months of their lives, they're just blobs of milk-drinking floof. For the other four they are exploring their environment, and going through all the same troubles and trials as their family (the coven, the AT war, etc). If Alvira just turned 6 months on May 29 and began shifting how's she so skilled at all of these fighting styles? Or anything with ritual magic (beyond meditation or prayers) if Avi hasn't even been practicing and Alvira hasn't had hands to practice spellcraft with?

I know most players look at young/puppy characters as a fun opportunity to delve into RP with a blank slate and see what happens. Of course we want a little bit of direction for each character so they need some interests and such, but it looks like Alvira is being set up like a fully adult character and not a character who is the equivalent of a 10 year old human.
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#15
@Kiri
I have gone ahead and removed sewing and first aid from the entire skills category (except for the note that she was exposed to it, though I may remove that too)

I'll also keep the fighting skills distinct and I'll keep that in mind when noting skills!


@Nuki
I do see your point about the divination. I'll take that part out about the the low-speech connecting to her divanation. And I am intrigued by the crystals and will look more into that. I have totally removed the entire witchcraft part from her skills section.

I kind of do agree that I am a bit attached to Avi, though I am trying to separate from her from her mother. I have steered her away from the herbalism and want to focus her mobility-related skills as a warrior as well as witchcraft as well. I also might want to expand more into her spirituality as well.

(The skills were the post-shifting that she would be learning and what she would have when she is a yearling, I have revamped it since.)


Also, I totally kinda revamped Alvira's future skills section. I went off of Raze's with Merai (Hope you don't mind~) with just the possible interests and skills. Not sure if it still needs to be hidden but there's no heading anymore so it's easy to miss. They're ones that I hope she'd go into though the only few I'm certain is the agility/evasion/stealth though I do want her to go into combat and witchcraft. The original stuff that was there is hidden by the nifty comment feature for my own reference (since I fear that I will not always have a doc with me and I trust the wiki and feel like I can always access it from anywhere).
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@import url('http://sleepyglow.net/rp/icons/signature-icons.css');
.Alvirasig {width:40%; margin:0px auto; float:center}
.Alvirasig-img {background-image: url('https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/310101390372503563/450591139574054934/videotogif_2018.05.27_22.53.06.gif'); background-repeat:no-repeat; background-position:top center; height:140px;margin:-30px;}
.Alvirasig .iconblock { font-size:0; margin:0 auto; float:center;}
.Alvirasig #signature-icons a:hover, .Alvirasig #signature-icons a:focus, .Alvirasig #signature-icons a:active {opacity:1;filter:alpha(opacity=100%);}
.Alvirasig .iconblock a { opacity:.65; filter:alpha(opacity=90%); transition:200ms linear all; -moz-transition:200ms linear all; border-radius: 50%; border: 1px solid #234E20; }
.Alvirasig .iconblock a:hover, .Alvirasig .iconblock a:active, .Alvirasig .iconblock a:focus { opacity: 1; filter:alpha(opacity=100%); box-shadow: 0px 0px 2px #000;border:#307830 1px solid; }
.alvirasig-credit {text-align:center; font-family: 'Cambria', 'Georgia';font-size:10px; padding:3px; opacity:0.6;}
</style>
[/html]
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