Cross-Cultivation and Crop Viability post Humanity?

[Nazario del Bosque]

PROPOSED QUESTION:
Would popularized "commercial crop" plants still be around, or viable, for Luperci use? (With, certain exceptions, of course)

Can we reference luperci cultivating crops? For convenience's sake, should existing crops produced be referenced as hybrids of the original crops (as we know them)?


Counter-Point #1:

Why would Luperci want to eat crops vs. hunt or fish for nutrients?

While it's true that Luperci would rely more heavily on their natural meat-heavy diets, studies have shown that wild canines may turn to eating plant matter to fill gaps in their nutrition - leaves, grass, etc.

In this scenario, the dog may even be seeking out grass to get additional nutrients it may not have in its normal diet, such as fiber, minerals or digestive enzymes. A 2007 case study in the Journal of Veterinary Medical Science reported that a switch to a high-fiber diet stopped a miniature poodle from regularly eating grass.

Wolves and other wild canids are known to regularly eat plant matter, suggesting dogs' grass-eating behavior is innate and perfectly normal. Indeed, a 2009 dog study in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior found that puppies were more likely to eat grass if their mothers did while nursing.

In fact, when trying to produce any 'healthier' alternatives to name-brand "grain based" dog foods in our IRL households, it's turned out to be rarely as simple as just giving our pets unseasoned meats, as our canine companions, over generations of breeding, have adapted to omnivorous habits.

Because of the dietary needs of dogs, both their tooth structure and intestinal tract have become adapted to an omnivorous diet. This means that, under normal circumstances, dogs can meet their nutritional needs by eating a combination of plant and animal foods. The source of the proteins and fats is less important than the quality and digestibility of these essential components of the dog's diet. Dogs can thrive if they are fed a properly balanced vegetarian diet. However, an all-meat diet would be unbalanced and would not meet all of a dog's nutritional requirements.

My own vet cites using root-type crops for dog food - i.e., cooked sweet potato, carrots, etc., as well as crops such as peas as part of a home made dog food!

As such, it may make sense for Canis lupus familiaris Luperci to have a higher probability of, perhaps, picking up rudimentary farming and foraging to help fill gaps in their diets!

Counter Point #2:

How would Luperci benefit from agriculture?

Well, aside from the aforementioned dietary balancing, I think it wouldn't be too hard a stretch to see the benefits of farming/production of crops that both feed luperci, and could feed their livestock! For instance, Salsola has an apple orchard - which are fun snacks both for their cattle, and horses, I'm sure, as well as providing use for a potential Luperci food source for SL's denizens~ (Along with specifically referenced vegetables offered along their elaborate Last Supper meal courses! <


Counter Point #3:

How would crops survive/fare without humans?

Answer, at least to me, is that many of the crops would probably not have survived, at least as we have seen them (especially thanks to the heavy production and popularization of Monsanto's monopoly on seed patents in which crops started being produced under intellectual property since the 1930's, and since then, certain plants have been bred via GMO's to be nonviable without constant seeding from the source of said parent company, Monsanto), but, certain strains and genetic backgrounds of crop-type plants stem back far enough and are varied enough to likely survive an apocalyptic situation. Without human interference, it's quite possible that these crops may have cross-cultivated with others of their same type (Sugar Beets, long-cultivated, since 1747 cross-breeding with the wild type Sea Beet, but still remaining a viable crop, etc.).

Of course, I think a large part of this relies very heavily on the genetic pool of the cultivated population of existing plants. Most plants have a largely varied pool to tap from - for example, there are 7,500 types of apple worldwide, though only 100 of these apples (as we commonly see them) are grown "commercially" in the United States.

Pink Pearl apple, Winesap apple, Arkansas Black apple, Opal apple, to name a less few of these less common crops

Then, to the contrary, you have the Banana, which likely... Would not have survived without human interference, as history has shown that (not once, but quite a few times), the genetic pool of bananas, as we know them, has been so strongly bred for only a handful of traits that they're essentially clones, leaving the entire population prone to banana plagues, which, coincidentally, happens to be why the synthetic flavor of Banana does not taste like the crop we can buy in stores now.

The original banana for "banana candy" flavor was based on the Gros Michel (or "Big Mike") banana, which was the most popular crop produced up until the 1950's, which has now been largely replaced by the Cavendish banana.

[Saga D'Angelo]

I can't pretend to be well versed in any of the above, but I do own a fat ass beagle who loves food and I have worked with dogs in the past at least.

I don't find it hard to believe that canines would expand beyond solely hunting as a food source. My dog loves vegetables and I know a load of other dogs that do too. Putting a 'Souls point of view on them, I don't think it's unlikely that given the ability to cultivate crops, some wouldn't choose to grow things they enjoy the taste of.

My girl *really* likes bell peppers and I honestly think that, if transported into a 'Souls scenario, she'd be growing her own. She's also a big fan of sticking her face into all my veggies in the garden so I'm taking that as some sign of enthusiasm lmao

[Morrigan Archeron]

WARNING: This thread contains material exceeding the general board rating of PG-13. It may contain very strong language, drug usage, graphic violence, or graphic sexual content. Reader discretion is advised.

Specifically, this thread is marked mature because of: .

Honestly, to me, the opposition points have value but its not like canines would be growing their own weed, making their own liquor, and otherwise doing drugs ' in real life ' so why are we allowing that but not something like beets?

[Nazario del Bosque]

@Vida
I agree - While I don't really like the ethics of feeding a dog a *vegetarian diet* (because... I mean, protein is best gotten through meat with dogs), I can't deny that Sadie loves veggies to the point that we can't leave them up on counters in case she decides that she wants them for herself.

Not to mention: working at the zoo, (while I know they're not a 'Souls Species) the keepers often times would freeze watermelons or pumpkins and launch it into the African Wild Dog enclosures as fun summer treats, and the animals loved it. Hyenas, too!

@Ems
An excellent point! >:0
I think that "Because it Tastes Good" could be just as viable as "Because It Makes Me Feel Good/Because It Makes Me Feel Funny" as justification for a behavior; coincidentally finding other uses for things like vegetables and such is just a bonus?

[Saga D'Angelo]

For real, Lena gets meat-filled food twice a day, but if I'm cooking my own dinner and I don't give her some vegetable scraps (especially bell peppers, I literally have to save her a whole one if I'm cooking T_T) she makes her displeasure well known.

[Kiri]

Kinda confused because I think it's clear we don't disallow agriculture altogether -- many packs have pursued agriculture to varying degrees. So I'm not sure why the counterpoints were necessary, ha.

Can we reference luperci cultivating crops?

Sure.

For convenience's sake, should existing crops produced be referenced as hybrids of the original crops (as we know them)?

Nomenclature and taxonomy-wise, it's probably unreasonable for Luperci to have catalogued flora to the extent that humans have, and most probably would not be able to identify the difference between various subspecies or related species of plants, much less hybrid varieties. This is true regardless of the type of plant (or hell, animal -- what does your average Luperci care about different species of finch). Common names for plants probably encompass a wide swath of specific species and varieties. "Grass" could mean a lot of different species.

Technicality-wise, I think it's probable that non-native crop species would've largely died out without human care. Weather conditions and lack of natural irrigation would cause most fields to fail, and many crops aren't made to self-pollinate -- so even if they did survive for a season or two, there'd be no one around to sew new seeds.

As such, most plants available for Luperci agriculture will probably be native species.

--

Circling back to some of the counter points though:

Why would Luperci want to eat crops vs. hunt or fish for nutrients?

Playable territories are generally lush and plentiful -- there is plenty of plantlife for Luperci to nibble on if they so choose, and it wouldn't be weird or uncommon for dogs in particular to snack on flora here and there. As such, unless there's a particular plant that's kind of rare and that a whole pack just loves for some reason, I don't think there'd be a compelling reason to dedicate the time and resources to cultivate crops for Luperci consumption, especially since most of their food would still be meat.

As for feeding livestock -- this is, again, probably also something that's perfectly well sustained with wild flora. Most packs raise their livestock free-range. This is way less effort. Crops may be helpful to supplement winter and travel feed, but huge amounts of feed is bulky, difficult to store, and difficult to keep -- Luperci may or may not be aware of proper means of drying and storing feed, after all.

In general, while I think small agricultural pursuits -- like an orchard or a garden or a small field of whatever -- are fine, large-scale operations are probably not worth the effort, and therefore unlikely.

[Morrigan Archeron]

counter points were ones brought up in #help ( discord channel ) by other staff

[Kamari Kaiser]

Tacking onto Kiri's comment, I do think meat should be a Luperci's primary source of food, and should remain their natural go-to, particularly in those of the "feral" variety that have had little or no exposure to the more sophisticated Luperci societies. In the immediate post-human extinction, there wouldn't be any Luperci that would probably pick up on "Oh, my human did this. I'mma do crops now." Everything's likely to go feral.

It'd probably take quite a few years/generations before a Luperci thought, "I like this fruit/vegetable. I want more of this fruit...I don't know how to get more fruit." And, then through observation, go, "I spit a bunch of seeds out here and, look! Plants grew! Let me collect more of these seeds. Let me plant these seeds. Let me nurture and grow these seeds. Maybe, just maybe, I'll have my own fruit/vegetable plant! "

That aside, you shouldn't have Wolf, who has grown up in a very feral lifestyle, suddenly take to collecting seeds and eating cultivated crops on the regular over meat, for example. For Dog, who has grown up in a more sophisticated, long-standing Luperci society where Luperci have been taught how to do so and accept such things, sure.

Without going too fancy or super-realism on the subject, I think it's better to be vague when referring to crops in general. "It was a tomato." vs. "It was a roma tomato." kind of thing. I think, being vague like this, works both to keep things the player knows and is familiar with, while also allowing for enough vagueness in terminology to let it slide on the realism scale for what strain of tomato might still be around vs. which ones might not be without human intervention.

Of course, do your proper research with what plants can actually be grown in New Brunswick/Nova Scotia and be reasonable with seed obtainment and care needed for the plant to actually mature to a point of producing.

[Nazario del Bosque]

Technicality-wise, I think it's probable that non-native crop species would've largely died out without human care. Weather conditions and lack of natural irrigation would cause most fields to fail, and many crops aren't made to self-pollinate -- so even if they did survive for a season or two, there'd be no one around to sew new seeds.

I agree, as with I pointed out with Monsanto's interference in propagating the demand for non-self-pollinating plants in the wake of seed patenting.

However, is it possible that those sort of crop-plants more hardy to environments: root plants like carrots, potatoes, turnips, parsnips, etc. could be bartered/traded/produced within 'Souls?

This whole sort of thought process has stemmed from my curiosity, originally, from old Indigenous Canadian recipes for "Spruce beer", which used 'molasses', and then I fell down the rabbit hole of how to make sustainable molasses and all the properties with which molasses could be used for from there, and from Molasses, I got sugar beets, which would be more sustainable than trying to grow sugarcane so far north, is dog-friendly, and can serve purpose with fodder, and such. And, again, sugar beets predated seed patents by around 200 years, just about - with such an extensive history of their cultivation, would it be out of the question for a Luperci to trade for sugar beets (though, likely just knowing "Beetroot" and produce them for industrial/agricultural use?

And I say industrial very loosely and generously. I don't think we'll have brick-laying, city building Luperci for quite a long, long, long, long time, if ever at all.

I mean, luperci are capable of writing, of dying wool, of crafting rudimentary weapons and armor and clothing (to an extent), so I don't think small-scale harvests are that hard to conceptualize for summer months?

Granted, of course, you can't really dry a lot of things nicely like gourds or melons. But roots keep for a long time, and berries and apples and fruits can be dried for stores, just like grasses and grains for livestock to sustain on through winter?

Perhaps, for an individual luperci such efforts would be MUCH MORE DIFFICULT and honestly not considered viable, which i entirely understand, but for communities like Loner Bands or Packs, is that within the realm of possibility?

Also, I mean, speaking of things that spoil quickly that may not have occurred super quickly to luperci, over a long while there have been references to 'dairy uses' for livestock animals -- I feel like there's a similar sort of curve to thought in "I would like more of these Carrot Things" and "I'm Gonna Go Squeeze The Milk out of that Goat", so I'd like to think that farming, while not super intensive or wholly understood, would not be all that out of left field c:

[Kiri]

I can't see where staff said "no agriculture," only "[Luperci wouldn't] be huge into agriculture." I think the counter point arguments should largely be considered "food for thought" and points of consideration than "no." :>

Re: Luperci diet -- we would disallow characters from having a vegetarian or even vegetarian-mostly diet. While IRL dogs may be able to survive on one, it's not recommended and requires a lot of advanced nutritional knowledge that would take a lot of experimentation to obtain.

Re: specific plants to cultivate -- agree with Song. In most cases with regard to realism, it's better to only be specific enough that people know what you're talking about. If you can't be certain that a detail would be realistic (Roma tomatoes), it's better to dial it back to a level you're more certain of (tomatoes). This applies broadly, even outside of cultivation. Better to reference a "knife" than a "antique switchblade," etc.

Basically, with regard to "what can Luperci grow crops of" -- 1) try native species, or 2) species that are likely to thrive in the area with minimum care. How Luperci got seeds for a non-native species can honestly be skipped over as long as it isn't something too crazy or foreign. It's not totally improbable that overgrown human gardens would have some non-native things that would've survived if they were species that can grow without human care anyway. There wouldn't be fields full of these things, so again, don't go crazy, but you can always ask about specific species if you want to, too.

--

Shadowposted Despi.

Okay, so we're asking about sugar beets specifically.

Climatic conditions, temperature, sunshine, rainfall and winds have an important bearing upon the success of sugar beet agriculture. A temperature ranging from 15 to 21 °C (59.0 to 69.8 °F) during the growing months is most favorable. In the absence of adequate irrigation, 460 mm (18.1 inches) of rainfall are necessary to raise an average crop. High winds are harmful, as they generally crust the land and prevent the young beets from coming through the ground. The best results are obtained along the coast of southern California, where warm, sunny days succeeded by cool, foggy nights seem to meet sugar beet's favored growth conditions. Sunshine of long duration but not of great intensity is the most important factor in the successful cultivation of sugar beets.

This makes me skeptical that they'd be able to be grown in playable territories. If they're grown elsewhere, you'd need to explore the motivation for the growers to attempt to trade it, given that its value or uses may not be well-understood or known. Heavy and bulky goods are hard to move on land due to lack of roads, and while root vegetables store well in dry conditions, the same can't be said for more damp conditions, such as those at sea.

So for sugar beets specifically, no, I don't think they're a viable crop here. Trading is a possibility, but you'd need to work around the above caveats.

[Kiri]

hi, for the sugarbeets topic, id just like to point out they are grown in canada, via regular farmland :v
in alberta, which is zone 3b, and souls has a better zone then we do...
beets are actually a cold weather crop and are fairly hardy.

Well, I'm sure there are things I've missed based on a cursory glance at the wiki page, so I'm happy to be wrong on where sugar beets can be grown. That said, it looks like there were farms that grow regular beets in NS, but not sugar beets specifically, which are all in AB. This makes them unlikely to be found wild here, but on the up side, it seems like (white sugar) beets are generally wind pollinated, which makes them more likely to survive post-human given favourable weather conditions.

Though this could also be a case where being less specific is a good idea. Whatever can be made from sugar beets can probably be made from regular beets, and that they're less sugary may or may not be relevant depending on the product. And Luperci may or may not have as much of a sweet tooth as humans. There's a lot that can be fudged for storytelling purposes, depending on what the endgame here is.

[Kamari Kaiser]

Re: Sugar beets specifically, while there are sugar beet farms located within Canada and within the same general latitude line as New Brunswick/Nova Scotia, you also need to consider the availability of those crops. The sugar beet looks to have been grown in very far from-'Souls-playable areas according to a 2000 map (1, 2), so, it's likely safe to assume that those would have been smaller 12 years prior (when humans died out in 1988). As such, I agree with Kiri in that they would have to be imported into the area, and then you'd also need to probably define the "Why" would a Luperci go through the process of traveling so far from its viable, reliable source to do so.

[Nazario del Bosque]

Gotcha!

Sorry, I didn't intend for the topic to get so intensive, as I was more or less curious about the sort of nuance in regards to Luperci "farming" or cultivation of crops, and anything in regards to the specifics about it -

Partly why I was asking over information over whether we should expect that these vague-named plants should be more or less just kind of referenced as "hybrids", all things considered with those that do and can self-seed c:

[Kiri]

ICly, I don't think anyone would be knowledgable enough to call any plant a hybrid.

For simplicity's sake, I think it's easiest to assume that all wild plants are able to pollinate and reproduce naturally, including whatever's survived of human-made crops.

[Nazario del Bosque]

OH, I agree, and suppose I should've made it a little more evident that I had intended that hybrid 'referencing' be OOC for realism standards between players!

A luperci wouldn't know the difference between potatoes. They're all cronchy roots >:I

[Kiri]

OOC-wise, if you want to choose a specific variety, as long as it's probable to have survived post-human (natural-pollinating, able to survive weather conditions & lack of irrigation) and can reasonably be grown locally, it's probably fine.