The Yellowstone wolves are just a case study. Here's a passage from the same source cited above. Note this book is about wolves in general, not just Yellowstone wolves. Some parts bolded by me for emphasis.
Quote:Because wolves tend to kill prey that are vulnerable, and because prey vulnerability is greatly affected by weather conditions, weather is important to wolf-prey relations. The most significant weather factor is snow conditions, including snow depth, density, duration, and hardness.
Snow affects prey animals primarily by hindering their movements, including foraging and escape from wolves. The effect of snow on prey escape is mechanical: the deeper and denser the snow, the harder it is for prey to run through it. Most prey probably have a heavier foot loading than do wolves, so they would sink deeper and be hindered more than wolves. Estimates for foot loading in deer, for example, range from 211 g/cm² (Mech et al. 1971) to 431-1,124 g/cm² (Kelsall 1969), whereas for wolves, the estimate is about 103 g/cm² (Foromozov 1946). Ungulates are usually much heavier than wolves and possess hard hooves that puncture snow much more easily than the spreading, webbed toes of a wolf foot. This difference can tilt the balance toward wolves during predation attempts on animals from the size of deer (Mech et al. 1971) to bison (D. R. MacNulty, personal communication).
The condition of snow changes daily, even hourly, and wolves and their prey are very sensitive to subtle changes that might work to their advantage or disadvantage. R. Peterson (personal observation) has seen packs of wolves sleep through late afternoon and early evening during midwinter thaws, apparently waiting of the crusted snow that will follow when the temperature drops at night. During daily tracking of a pack of five wolves in upper Michigan during a 3-month period, B. Huntzinger (personal communication) documented three cases of the pack killing five to ten deer overnight; during two of these instances the kills were made during heavy blizzards, and in the third case wolves took advantage of a strong snow crust that supported them, but not the deer.
In addition to the acute effect of hindering prey escape, deep snow has a longer, more pervasive effect on prey nutrition. Snow resistance reduces foraging profitability for ungulates and causes them to lose weight over the winter, the amount depending on snow depth and density and duration of cover. During severe winters, prey often starve. The combination of reduced nutrition and poor escape conditions for prey can result in a bonanza for wolves (Pimlott et al. 1969; Mech et al. 1971, 1998, 2001; Peterson and Allen 1974; Mech and Karns 1977; Peterson 1977; Nelson and Mech 1986c).
... [some interesting stuff about how winters can actually affect prey reproduction and bias in the wolves' favour, but since this article won't copy and paste and I'm typing it manually, y'all can reference the link if you really care XD]
The effects of weather, especially snow, so pervade wolf-prey relations that some workers believe that they actually drive wolf-prey systems (Mech and Karns 1977; Mech 1990a; Mech et al. 1998; Poste et al. 1999). When snow conditions are severe over a period of years, they reduce prey survival and productivity, and wolves increase for a few years, whereas during periods of mild winters, the opposite happens. This bottom-up interpretation of driving factors may seem to conflict with a top-down interpretation (McLaren and Peterson 1994). However, ecosystems are complex and dynamic, with multiple food chains, so they can include both bottom-up and top-down influences.
The point is that it's relatively harder on the prey than the wolves, so they have a comparatively easy time catching them. In fact, the worse the winter is, the better off the wolves are! It doesn't look like it has to do with geography so much as the kinds of prey available. Maybe the prey in Norway are better adapted to snow and can outpace the wolves? Is there any scientific literature you can cite that explains how the wolves have a hard time in Norway's winter?
Either way, I'm not thinking our wolves would have an issue since heavy prey like deer, elk, moose, etc. are what's on the menu and they'd succumb to the issues cited in the article. Perhaps a secui would have a rougher time because it's heavier, and definitely an optime, but they usually hunt with advanced weaponry anyway (bow & arrow, spear, etc).
e Side note -- This book is totally awesome o__o I'm thinking of picking up a copy for reference~
If it's warmer in Nova Scotia, the snow will be less dense here, thus the prey will not have such a hard time, though :3
I'm not saying I don't agree with you that that is certainly plausible, I'm saying that I don't agree with Yellowstone being used as a template for this place (or a general book about wolves, for that matter), when we have so much stuff in this world that's quite different. If we were to figure out exactly how winter is -here-, we'd have to find sources that discuss Nova Scotia instead of stating how things are in Yellowstone or elsewhere, where the climate and geography is different. Also we're werewolves so there are variables that need adding. :3
For all we know, loads of places can't sustain deer, for example (how far will natural reforestation have come in 30 years?). That would certainly affect things  I just don't think it's -that- interesting unless it's about Nova Scotia, specifically ;3
Also when I said "harsher on the wolves" I meant in comparison to the warmer months - not in comparison to prey animals' winter survival ;D
Well... while it's warmer it still dips down well below freezing at night for four months of the year -- December through March. Various parts of NS receive anywhere from 1.5 to 4 m of snow a year (59 - 157 in). The coasts are on the lower end of the spectrum, and the coverage is intermittent, but¹:
Quote:During the snow season, snow cover usually occurs 75 per cent of the time away from the Atlantic coast, and especially over higher ground. Near the Atlantic and the mouth of the Bay of Fundy, snow cover can be expected 50 to 65 per cent of the time.
Said cover ranges from Quote:less than 30 cm in coastal areas to more than 75 cm in upland and highland areas.
They'd have to be strategic and opportunistic about it, but half the time in winter, there is snow on the ground for them to use to their advantage. Those on the southern coast won't get much of a boost, but northern packs definitely would. And it's not unusual for our wolves to roam around the neutral territories in between, some of which fall into prime snowy territory; looks like the Ethereal Eclipse, Arachnea's Revenge, and Drifter Bay would be good spots to try (comparing our map with the one on page "101").
As far as reforestation, it happens faster than you'd think. Consider the following:
Quote:Give them another 30 or 40 years, and hikers going through the area where this year’s fires have wiped out most trees, those seedlings will have grown tall enough that hikers won’t even know the area had been devastated by fires in 2007.
In fact, fire is a natural part of the forest’s regeneration system. Most forest trees need to be exposed to fire every 50 to 100 years to invigorate new growth.
Given that's about regrowth after a forest fire, so let's look at an abandoned city -- Verosha, Cyprus, which was abandoned in 1974. A mere two years after the city's abandonment, someone was called in to help refurbish a hotel³.
Quote:He wandered through the deserted town. About 20,000 people had lived or worked in Varosha. Asphalt and pavement had cracked; he wasn't surprised to see weeds growing in the deserted streets, but hadn't expected to see trees already ... some nearly three feet high.
If they're already colonising the streets within a couple years, I'd imagine after 30 they'd be fine.
I guess I'm not seeing how it could be much harsher on them if a string of brutal winters = more wolves. I'm guessing they'd be indifferent to it at best -- again for Canadian and mountain-dwelling natives.
¹ http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mnh/nature/nhns/t5/t5-2.pdf
² http://www.sciencebuzz.org/buzz_tags/forest_regrowth
³ The World Without Us by Alan Weisman
I'm sure I've read people posting in the past that winter is a more bountiful time and it makes a lot of sense even though for a non-wolf just keeping warm must burn off a lot of extra energy. I suppose quite a few dog breeds would find it too cold and prefer to stay inside rather than scavenge/hunt, so the stores would come in useful there - and for parents who can't leave their pups (considering the humanised breeding system we use)... Also some luperci are getting more into cooking and using herbs+veg, so that kind of thing could be laid on for wintertime too. I think some packs have year-round storage? I imagine that provides a sort of safety net and keeps the amount of food available constant. One thing that could maybe be played more considering those statistics is to, after a hard winter, have a low prey summer?
Also think of migration. With no humans hindering prey are more able to move to area's where there is more food for them. Its cold up north though most animals don't travel far. For packs near the coast or in the lower parts. The herds might move more north to head to a more main land area and even cross over into main Canada. This could also lessen the food supply.
Because I mean most of the studies are done well now. Fences humans and other things throw off and alter Normal Migration. So with out them and human things crumbling it allows more roaming room.
[html]I think Zero's got a point with this. I also don't think any amount of scientific evidence is going to sway the way the game is currently played. The way the wolves are right now, most of them act in accordance to how people in, say, early medieval times would. By that, the wolves would be storing food for winter, because they would be cooking (as Fred mentioned).
*shrug* I guess it all depends on how you play the game. But from what Zero's showed, I can't help but agree that it doesn't make sense to be worried about meat stores. [/html]
@Zero: okay, so, I can't be bothered with this discussion, as it's now just circling. If you go back, you'll see that I never argued against you, I in fact made it very clear that I do not disagree, but I tried to highlight some sides of it that had not been covered yet. I'm sorry if you felt I was arguing against you, but I didn't -- now you're arguing with TL;DR's against my points which weren't arguments in the first place. -shrugs- All I said was that 'Souls wolves situation is complex and different, thus discussing what real wolves do could possibly be irreleveant - we just can't know for sure.
I feel this is a very good debate and although Yellowstone is not Nova Scotia a lot can be learned from Yellowstones current wolf populations especially since wolves are so scarce everywhere else in the world currently. I don't think anything is irrelevant in this discussion, especially since werewolves are fictitious creatures and all we have to go off of are actual wolves.
So I don't feel this is an argument at all but a very healthy debate. Sorry for butting in but this really interests me.
Zero you bring up a lot of good points, I didn't realize how large of scale everything was until you broke it down and I think Souls would really benefit in a roleplay guide about hunting and prey availability during the different seasons. I've started reading through the current roleplay guide and I feel it has been incredibly educational to me, most of the stuff mentioned on the site like the flora and fauna, ocean's currents and where best to travel across the Atlantic. I've never really understood before now.
x____x; Eugh, sorry man. This is why I generally stay away from debates -- once I latch onto something, I can't let it go. I was trying to address any and all counterpoints presented, yours and others'. It's in my nature to be thorough and source everything. And your considerations did help me learn more, which is important -- at first, I didn't know that their increased success in winter was due to snow in particular. And to echo Melissa, while things here might be different -- especially for reasons like those Fred & Rosie mentioned -- I still think information regarding real wolves is the best foundation we've got. Otherwise, I feel like we'd be just pulling things out of thin air.
Hehe, no probs either. I just get disinterested once debates get circular :3
In reading my comment again it looks like I'm pissed - I am not xD I am juse very serious face in the morning, I guess.
[html]Alright, so, sorry if replying now is kicking a dead dog. I've been meaning to reply to this thread since it first popped up, but I've only had the chance to sit down and collect my thoughts on the matter now. I apologize in advance if some of my responses and opinions have already been stated - I read various chunks and skimmed others, because a lot of them were TL;DR. But I think this is a wonderful point of interest, and really pretty relevant to the RP situation within 'Souls :3
Firstly, I'd like to say that I agree with the majority of what Zero has stated (and factually supported) regarding our current trend of playing winter as a lean time being unapplicable to the majority of wolfpacks that inhabit areas where heavy winter would pose a problem to most other wildlife, including traditional human beings. Zero has provided a very broad and well-researched front on this matter.
BUT, I also feel that there are a lot of factors not being taken into account.
While a fully-functional wolf pack may find food bountiful in the winter months, I think it is essential to recognise that within 'Souls, we are not dealing with 'fully-functional wolf packs'. now, I emphasised that pretty weirdly, but I do have reasons for this.
Wolves, particularly grey wolves, are evolved to take advantage of the heavy winters that their breed may be exposed to; But, as mentioned in other posts previous to this one, we are not dealing with a solidarily wolf-based population. I am not certain, but I assume by now that a large quantity, perhaps even the majority, of us play wolf-hybrids or other. This significantly hinders the relevance that statistical data has towards the ability for grey wolves to make the most of the cold season. Plenty of the species played in 'Souls are foreign to the area, including domesticated dogs. Not only could their physical adaptations lead to a weakness in winter, they would also possess different hunting and predatorial mannerisms, which might better suit them to prey that does not become easier to take down in snow.
That was my first point, but as I've noted, it was already recognised previously. So, I will now move on to the detail that occurs to me as being overlooked in this discussion - If I have skipped over a section where it was dealt with and mentioned, then I am sorry, and please do look over this c:
I would like to note that while we consider Luperci to be wolves, it seems to be very much ignored in this discussion that most of us play them, in the majority, as being humanoids - Both possessive of physical and mental human benefits, such as bipedalism and intelligence, and human flaws. The culture of being humanoid has dramatically changed the evolutionary mannerisms of our characters - In most packs we are seeing a dramatic difference in social structure and interactions. We are playing them like primitive humans, for the most part, not like true wolves. This is really massively important to the debate on whether or not winter is played as a lean time, and I will explain why.
When looking at snippets of the data that Zero has provided, it seems pretty difficult to deny that if we played our characters as quadrupedal, normally-functioning lupines, we would struggle to find reasons to play winter as a lean time. However, the fact that we play them as humanoid poses significant behavioural and realistic changes to the natural ability of wolves to flourish in winter. Firstly, if we played them as such natural wolves, the majority of our threads would circulate around hunting. We would basically be having pack hunting threads 80% of the time that our characters are not asleep. But, because our characters have developed humanoid methods of gathering food - Traditional hunter-gather, including trapping, fishing, some omnivorous tendancies, as well as farming. A lot of our current packs have a current reliance on livestock, and these domesticated herbivores tend to have a reliance on food that is only bountiful during warmer months. For them to provide adequate sustainence for our Luperci during winter, stores of grain or hay would have to be made as preparation for winter, suggesting that winter would be a lean time for the gathering of this supply.
Our characters have become suffienciently humanoid, notably to such a degree that we very infrequently have full-pack hunts. The animals that would be snared, or hunted in the mannerisms of primitive humans individually (based on the assumption that, as we do not have many full-pack hunt threads, thus assuming a change in culture where these are no longer prominent) are more likely the animals that become scarcer during winter months, or remain equally as ellusive. We are talking about hares, types of birds, and fish here, basically. While larger ungulants may be at a disadvantage during winter, as Zero's sources have indicated, what Luperci frequently hunts such large prey on their own (and is successful)? Realistically, very few. Thus eliminating these creatures from a primary food source, as they would have been in a fully-functional wolf pack.
I know I've rambled a bit, but I think that when you reflect on how much we have changed the Luperci species' entire habitual profile since the virus opened them up to such humanisation, it becomes easier to understand why it is viable to play winter as a lean time. I mean, not only is it somewhat realistic when you consider the change that being Optime provides, it is also, simply, much more fun to play it as a lean time. Roleplay is more enjoyable when we have environmental diversity - Our human nature associates winter with more survival-based hardships, and I know that it gives me a certain degree of satisfaction to include endeavors such as stocking up on prey for winter months into my threads and plots. I mean, considering the points that Zero raised, it wouldn't be unrealistic to play it otherwise; It would be easy enough to play winter as an abundance, with people hunting in groups in their lupus forms and bringing down snow-encumbered prey. But that doesn't sound as much fun to me as utilizing the pre-historical abilities of humans to preserve meats and berries and nuts, and to go through the seasonal changess with an ebb and flow of bounty. In my mind, that is the more preferable option.
Anyway, I think I've wasted your time enough now, everyone! I hope my reply is valid enough to be considered - Keep these brain-benders coming! They're always good for some deep thought, anyway <3[/html]
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