'Couple of grammar questions

[Dawali Amara]

I have some questions. I already know of some bad habits for Norwegian English speakers, but now I'm genuinely starting to doubt my knowledge of a few things. This might be seen as nitpicking by some, but I assume that there are some among you guys who are concerned with the same details. I am a perfectionist and whenever I see my own grammar/punctuation mistakes I want to punch something. Now I've become so confused I don't even remember what I used to know so I need to clarify >< Here's what I've been thinking about:

* Comma rules. When to have comma, when to not have comma. When it comes to listing independent clauses - I think I get that. Dunno, PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. Also simpler things are bugging me. Do you use comma before 'and' and 'but' and 'or' as a general rule, or only in some cases? In Norwegian we always use a comma before the words equal to 'and', 'but', and 'or', but a guy I know claim you don't do that in English! So now I am afraid I'm overusing commas in English. Examples:

- 'The shirt is blue, and red' or 'the shirt is blue and red' The former, because 'blue' and 'red' are in some state of comparison/agreement, and shouldn't be broken by a comma?
- 'Do you want coffee, or tea?' or 'Do you want coffee or tea?' The latter, I guess? Same reason as with 'blue and red'?
- 'he took the keys, his car, and the hat'. or 'he took the keys, his car and his hat'? I think the former, but I can't say why.
- 'Do you want coffee, tea, or hot chocolate?' or 'Do you want coffee, tea or hot chocolate?' The former again? Why?
- 'this porridge is with cinnamon and I like that' or 'this porridge is with cinnamon, and I like that'? Here, I lean towards the latter, but I don't know if it's right. It's correct in Norwegian, but possibly wrong in English.
- 'I like her, but not you' or 'I like her but not you'? the former? Am I 'Norwegianifying' English sentences with my commas?

* Semicolons and complex sentences.When listing clauses - they are separated with semicolons when the sentence structure would have used commas had the items of the list been single words? Also in this sentence, would the last two items be listed like that, or would there be a semicolon (or regular comma?) also after 'blue car'?
- 'There are a number of reasons: Belle's love for food, which is destructive in itself; the cat's presence in the dining room; the hunter and the strange outfit he wears; the blue car and its contents and the similarity between Belle and her mother.'
or:
- 'There are a number of reasons: Belle's love for food, which is destructive in itself; the cat's presence in the dining room; the hunter and the strange outfit he wears; the blue car and its contents, and the similarity between Belle and her mother.'

* Somewhat related to the above: and (and 'or'). I am is technically not breaking any rules by writing the following, correct? 'He took the bag and the keys and the blue shirt and the little clip to go on it'. It sounds bad/childish, but it is not breaking grammar rules? Technically, can I do the same with 'or'? 'Do you want coffee or tea or a sandwich or something else?' This sounds less crippled than the string of 'and''s, but... is it grammatically sound?

* Hyphens. Is there some general rule that states when to write a compound with a hyphen, and when not to? I know that the hyphen is exiting the English language, but I also know there are still some compounds around that use it. These compounds just have to be memorized?

* Countries. If I am talking about India, can I call the country 'her', or is that just a poetic twist used by some? 'With her 14 official languages - in addition to Hindi -, India is very much a multilingual country.' OH and here again with the comma! After a shot-in comment like that, should there be a comma? Should I use ()'s instead (dunno what they're called in English), and then a comma? Like this: 'With her 14 official languages (in addition to Hindi), India is very much a multilingual country.' Should there even be a comma there? 'With her 14 official languages India is very much a multilingual country.' or 'With her 14 official languages, India is very much a multilingual country.'? ARGH.

Obviously, this has been bugging me A LOT. And I'm so picky: not only do I want the right answer, but I want the core rule that states why. No books I've found so far can give me that. I'm hoping that I could perhaps start a discussion about this, and find some answers like that. Feel free to criticize anything else I keep doing, any other frequent mistakes, like weak sentences/strange sentence patterns or whatever. I'm very open for that, because I really really want to write good English. Pretty English<3

Thanks loads to anyone who have anything to say about this, you're helping my silly thoughts of lingual inadequacy!

[Kaena Lykoi]

When it comes to commas, one of the most useful things I've ever heard is to simply read it back aloud. If there is a natural pause in your speech, that's generally where the comma will go. I will readily admit I am a comma freak and I probably way, way overuse them. XP

- When and is used to split two descriptive adjectives like red and blue, the comma is not necessary:
- As far as lists with commas go--I DON'T KNOW. |: I was taught that you should always use a comma after and when using it in a list like that, but someone told me years later that it can be done either way. >_O I vary between using both, which looks horrible, but you know--I was taught a certain way, and then someone else told me that they changed it and either way is correct. >_O This is the same reason why I don't know whether to put just the ' or 's after a noun that ends with S, because I was taught that it is correct to write "Jesus's" and again, it was changed/someone told me that just the apostrophe is correct. |: AHA, I have just solved this for myself:

"Finally, the thorniest comma-related question, whether or not to include the serial comma (also known as the Oxford comma or Harvard comma from its inclusion in their house style guides). In most house styles, the comma is preferred before the last item in a list: "the first, second, and third chapters." Leaving it out — "the first, second and third chapters" — is a habit picked up from journalism. While it saves a teensy bit of space and effort, omitting the final comma runs the risk of suggesting the last two items (in the example above, the second and third chapters) are some sort of special pair. A famous (and perhaps apocryphal?) dedication makes the danger clear: 'To my parents, Ayn Rand and God.'"

- The last two examples, I believe it is correct to put a comma between them. They read like run-on sentences without the commas. :3

- I thiiiiiiink when you use a semicolon for a list like that, it is not necessary to include "and" before the last sentence, so I think it should be:

"There are a number of reasons: Belle's love for food, which is destructive in itself; the cat's presence in the dining room; the hunter and the strange outfit he wears; the blue car and its contents; the similarity between Belle and her mother."

- Technically not, but already with four "ands" it sounds like a run-on sentence, so unless you are going for a rushed sort of style for that scene in the writing, I would avoid it. It could be useful if he is rushing out of the house in an extreme hurry, in which case it'd be perfect, since my brain processes that sentence rather quickly and it reads as jumbled. X3

- Not sure about hypenating. :[

- Hrrrrm. I have heard this before, but it is a little bit archaic and outdated, something I would avoid in any kind of schoolwork or professional writing. :3

I found this site:

http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/index.html

You might find it useful! I am bookmarking it for myself.

[Jacquez Trouillefou]

I think your grammar is far more precise than a lot of the English speakers here. C:

I do have a habit of overusing commas and hyphens as well, so I might not be the best judge, but so far all of the phrases you offered, you chose the same version I did. (These are called (parentheses), by the way!)

These are the basic grammar guidelines I was taught in my low-budget US public school:

When it comes to using commas, there was never a specific rule, but was actually told that personal choice played a role... The one thing I remember is that if you use two commas in the same sentence, the phrase between the two should be able to be removed and the sentence still reads on its own. Example:

"I walked the dog, washed the car, and ate my dinner."
"I walked the dog and ate my dinner."

However, I never found any "official" version of that rule, so again, it seems like a personal preference rather than an ironclad rule. Semicolons are typically used to break up a run-on sentence, where a string of commas seems too long and repetitive, but making a separate sentence with a period would break up the thought.

"I did give it a great deal of thought; it just seems like a waste of time to me."

Countries typically aren't given a gender unless you're being poetic. The same goes for ships, buildings, etc... It's not incorrect - just uncommon.

I hope this does become a regular discussion - I like to fix my wonky grammar as well!

[Dawali Amara]

Thanks for replying <3333
I am being so picky, partly because I know I have a million essays to write (in English) in the future, and it's hard to write essay'y English So if my words are crap I want my grammar to be good, at least!

@ Sie:
Oh, nice link! bookmarked

And yeah your problem is exactly my problem. I learn one thing, then someone goes "no no, do it this way" and I'm like "WUT?!". In Norwegian we tend to add comma's when it sounds natural, but I tend to pause a lot when speaking clearly, and I got a comment from my teacher that I was slaughtering the concept XD Obviously, I need to talk faster and breathe less!

@Miyu:
Thanks! I still believe most of you guys have better flow than me, though. But foreigners are cute, right? I'm glad to see both of you share my twisted ideas on comma use and semicolons. That strange long listing of clauses is typically present in the majority of the syllabus of my course, so I guessed it might be right, but then some other articles don't do it at all, and I get all confused. But my one lecturer said that it is the universities that 'decide' grammar when it comes to English (unlike in Norway, we have a government-run group of professors that determine what is correct grammar and which words should be allowed to enter or leave the language), so that might explain the lack of a properly defined form of rules when it comes to punctuation?


Another question for anyone who cares to read:

When quoting small segments such as words inside a paragraph instead of separating it into a quote on its own, and starting the sentence with the quote, should it be capitalized even if it is not in the source? Such as this:

'He went to the car.' If I want to quote 'car', and the quote should head the sentence...? 'car' isn't capitalized, but should it be with a capital when it heads the sentence? Technically, the apostrophe is heading the sentence, not the noun, but still.. it looks strange!

In other words, should it be:
"'car' in this context bla bla bla" or "'Car' in this context bla bla bla"?

[Arkham Lykoi]

First off, I'm skipping over Sie and Miyu's replies because I'm in a hurry, so forgive me if I'm repeating anything. Because I'm an obnoxious grammar whore, I'd like to think I'm fairly confident in the matter, but I've been wrong before. Hopefully, I won't lead you astray though. :<

* Comma rules. When to have comma, when to not have comma. When it comes to listing independent clauses - I think I get that. Dunno, PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. Also simpler things are bugging me. Do you use comma before 'and' and 'but' and 'or' as a general rule, or only in some cases? In Norwegian we always use a comma before the words equal to 'and', 'but', and 'or', but a guy I know claim you don't do that in English! So now I am afraid I'm overusing commas in English. Examples:

Commas are used after "but" and "and" if 1) there is a complete sentence on either side of the word; however, this rule is often ignored in the case of simple sentences on either side. For instance, it is technically correct to say: "He ate cheese, and he ate bread," since both "he ate cheese" and "he ate bread" are complete sentences, however, a lot of people will skip the comma because both sentences are exceedingly simple. If the sentence is "He ate cheese and bread" there would be no comma for the same reason the below does not:

- 'The shirt is blue, and red' or 'the shirt is blue and red' The former, because 'blue' and 'red' are in some state of comparison/agreement, and shouldn't be broken by a comma?

There should be no comma. The shirt is a list of two related adjectives that do not contradict each other. If the shirt was three different colors, there would be commas because it is a list of three or more, as in: "The shirt is blue, red, and green." The comma after the red (second-to-last item) is optional because grammaticians can't seem to decide whether it should be required or not. If the shirt was four or more colors, there would NEED to be a comma after the second-to-last item, as in: "The shirt is blue, red, green, and purple."

If the shirt was red, not blue, then there would be a comma as it would be a contrasting expression. Similarly, if you said that the shirt was red, but not blue, there would also be a comma.

- 'Do you want coffee, or tea?' or 'Do you want coffee or tea?' The latter, I guess? Same reason as with 'blue and red'?

I want to say that either can be correct, though the former may only feel correct because a lot of people tend to put commas whenever they would naturally pause in a sentence even though there isn't always a corresponding rule saying you should.

- 'he took the keys, his car, and the hat'. or 'he took the keys, his car and his hat'? I think the former, but I can't say why.

Either is correct because it is a list of exactly three items.

- 'Do you want coffee, tea, or hot chocolate?' or 'Do you want coffee, tea or hot chocolate?' The former again? Why?

Either is correct because it is a list of exactly three items.

- 'this porridge is with cinnamon and I like that' or 'this porridge is with cinnamon, and I like that'? Here, I lean towards the latter, but I don't know if it's right. It's correct in Norwegian, but possibly wrong in English.

A comma would be correct as "This porridge is with cinnamon" and "I like that" are both complete sentences. As noted though, it's become really, really comma to drop the comma for simple sentences like that. ;\

- 'I like her, but not you' or 'I like her but not you'? the former? Am I 'Norwegianifying' English sentences with my commas?

A comma would be correct because it is a contrasting expression; the "but not you" is a dependent clause that is in direct contrast to "I like her."

* Semicolons and complex sentences.When listing clauses - they are separated with semicolons when the sentence structure would have used commas had the items of the list been single words? Also in this sentence, would the last two items be listed like that, or would there be a semicolon (or regular comma?) also after 'blue car'?

Semicolons can be used to offset phrases in a list when the phrases themselves contain commas. For example, if you were listing cities and their states, as in: "Emma has been to Cairo, Egypt; Beijing, China; and London, England." If the phrases to be listed do not contain commas within them, you should just use commas to offset the items.

- 'There are a number of reasons: Belle's love for food, which is destructive in itself; the cat's presence in the dining room; the hunter and the strange outfit he wears; the blue car and its contents and the similarity between Belle and her mother.'
or:
- 'There are a number of reasons: Belle's love for food, which is destructive in itself; the cat's presence in the dining room; the hunter and the strange outfit he wears; the blue car and its contents, and the similarity between Belle and her mother.'

There would be a semicolon, as in "...the blue car and its contents; and the similarity between Belle and her mother." The semicolon basically replaces the list-separating functionality of the comma, and as it is a list containing more than three items, there would normally be a comma before the second-to-last item.

* Somewhat related to the above: and (and 'or'). I am is technically not breaking any rules by writing the following, correct? 'He took the bag and the keys and the blue shirt and the little clip to go on it'. It sounds bad/childish, but it is not breaking grammar rules? Technically, can I do the same with 'or'? 'Do you want coffee or tea or a sandwich or something else?' This sounds less crippled than the string of 'and''s, but... is it grammatically sound?

Nope, you're not breaking any rules. I don't think it sounds childish either; it's a stylistic choice I employ rather often myself, actually.

* Hyphens. Is there some general rule that states when to write a compound with a hyphen, and when not to? I know that the hyphen is exiting the English language, but I also know there are still some compounds around that use it. These compounds just have to be memorized?

There is no real rule for when to use hyphens to compound a word and when to just mash the two words together, though it is often considered more elegant to use hyphens when three or more words are involved, or when the individual words are already lengthy. As a side note, a word should only be compounded when the second word relates directly to the first word, as in "man-eating" or "fun-loving." The Wikipedia article on hyphens includes a neat guide to semantics here.

* Countries. If I am talking about India, can I call the country 'her', or is that just a poetic twist used by some? 'With her 14 official languages - in addition to Hindi -, India is very much a multilingual country.' OH and here again with the comma! After a shot-in comment like that, should there be a comma? Should I use ()'s instead (dunno what they're called in English), and then a comma? Like this: 'With her 14 official languages (in addition to Hindi), India is very much a multilingual country.' Should there even be a comma there? 'With her 14 official languages India is very much a multilingual country.' or 'With her 14 official languages, India is very much a multilingual country.'? ARGH.

As India does not have a real gender, it would be a poetic choice to refer to her with a genderized pronoun. So saying "her fourteen languages" is just as correct as "its fourteen languages."

A hyphen (-) is not the same as a dash (—), though sometimes a dash can be denoted as two hyphens (--) because not everyone knows the keyboard shortcut for it offhand. Hyphens are used for compound words. Dashes are used to offset short clauses. Parentheses are generally used to add additional, not necessarily important, thoughts, so if you consider the "in addition to Hindi" to be important, it's better to use either dashes or a comma. Thus: "With her fourteen languages -- in addition to Hindi, India is very much a multilingual country." OR "With her fourteen languages, in addition to Hindi, India is very much a multilingual country." There should not be a closing dash before the comma as the dash and the comma have the same basic function in this case. Finally, there should indeed be a comma because "With her fourteen languages -- in addition to Hindi" is a long introductory phrase.

I hope that helps you understand! :3 If you haven't looked already, I do think the grammar portion of the RPGuide covers at least some of these. c: It also includes a few nice resource links.

[Jacquez Trouillefou]

;D

I knew Kiri wouldn't be able to resist a discussion on grammar... and that does clear up some of the iffy things.

That reminds me, I consistently forget the difference between a hyphen and a dash, since programs like Microsoft Word automatically fix the mistake. I use a regular hyphen to imply a dash -- which is incorrect of me! o:

Yes, foreigners are very cute! <333

[Dawali Amara]

Answers so quickly <3

[Arkham Lykoi]

If even one of your list items contains a comma, all items in the list should be offset by semicolons. So, "Emma has been to Oslo, Norway; Cairo, Egypt; England; Pakistan; and India."

No countries have genders in English. :3

You would use dashes in dialogue to offset phrases or whatever. Hyphens are only used to connect some compound words.

I like absolute truths too. XD

[EchoWolf]

To me, your grammer is far better than most english speakers, I know. I myself, am affraid to post anything without proof reading it, like twenty times. Whenever I wright something, that doesn't make any sense, I panic. My grammer itself, is horrible. To me, your grammer is perfect.


Please reply: Does this message sound good?

[Sylvie Ciel]

Marit love, you write beautiful English sentences. ;D It's supposed to be one the hardest language to learn from what I'm told... though it looks like Kiri's got all your confusions covered. |D Glad to see it!

__________________________________________________

Echo, your message sounds good, but your grammar and spelling are a bit off.

[ begin Grammar Nazi-ing.]

Grammar is spelled with an 'a', not an 'e'.

English should always be capitalized, as it is a language. The same goes for any other languages- French, German, Norwegian... yeah.

You have an unneeded comma after 'speakers' in your first sentence, and in the second sentence, an extra 'f' in afraid. You also wrote proofreading as two words- it is a single word. Unlike 'a lot', which most people put down as 'alot'. The comma after 'it' in this sentence would also go after 'like'.

In the third sentence, you're definitely using the wrong 'write'. I can't remember what words like these are called- ones that sound the same but are spelled differently- but 'right', 'write', and 'wright' are three completely different things. "Wright" is actually the surname of a famous pair of brothers that invented the first flying machines, right is "right or left?" and "right, as in correct," while write is "to write a story."

Your fourth sentence has an unneeded comma after itself, and grammar is once again spelled incorrectly.

The last sentence is fine beyond the repeated spelling mistake in grammar. At least you spell it the same way! I've seen people spell the same word four different ways in a single paragraph. It's rather disconcerting...

[ / end Grammar Nazi-ing.]

As was mentioned above, for your comma problems, read the sentence aloud and where you would put a natural pause, insert a comma. The general rule of thumb is that a comma indicates a pause in your speech, whether to breathe or to add dramatic effect.

Spelling is just... spelling. All I can say about that is to use something with a spell-check built into it when writing your posts- a friend of mine, for example, always wrote her posts for a different site in Microsoft Word before posing it, as well as had me look it over. Word isn't always great at picking out the incorrect usage of a word, such as your 'wright' for 'write', but it will at least make sure everything is spelled correctly. |D